Religion, Theology, and all that good stuff

[JACkory]

phil said:

Jac ~ Even if I had the tiniest shred of hope
that anything I could tell you would be received
without unleashing in response a barrage
of sarcastic, derisive comments, assumptions and questions,
it would still be an exercise in futility
both of us taking shots at each others quotes...

But you'll be happy to know that I will never again
post anything personal about religion again ...

But seriously...this is the biggest load of bullshit I've seen since the PBA Rodeo left town.
You take a good long look at the post where I responded to each of your paragraphs (which is, of course, as you say, the PROPER way your posts should be responded to) and show me a few examples of sarcastic, derisive comments. Show me the assumptions (especially any assumption I might have made that was WRONG). I'd like to see them, because I don't remember making them. Have I used sarcasm in this conversation? Yes, I have, but not until I gave in to the impression that you had no intention of reponding to my points (The only instance I can recall of my using sarcasm was when I asked "Where any of the books you read about Christianity?"...and that was thrown in out of the frustration that came when you refused to answer my questions and instead of PROVING that you knew what the fuck you were talking about, the best you could do was say "I read some books that belonged to a priest"...for crying out loud, I felt justified in being a tad sarcastic after that)...but there's no sarcasm in the post in which I asked you my questions that I sincerely desired an answer for.
As for "questions"...I plead guilty to asking you questions. Sue me. You don't want people to question your convictions? THEN KEEP THEM TO YOURSELF! Don't be posting some bullshit critique of religion if you can't handle inquisitive feedback...unless, of course, the only reason you post it is to piss off someone who you have a grudge against, someone who might have called you an asshole a few times. Am I saying that's why you posted it? Nope. But you sure as hell didn't post it for any legitimate reason, or else you'd be answering questions and defending your POV. This is a DISCUSSION BOARD, you know, and "discussion" implies an exchange of ideas and the answering of questions.

But you'll be happy to know that I will never again
post anything personal about religion again ...

Well, you have misunderstood my reason for engaging in this "discussion" if you think that my goal has been to get you to stop posting "anything personal about religion".
I enjoy reading other people's viewpoints about religion. I really do.
And I'd enjoy reading about your own beliefs, the things that are important to you. But what would you do if I posted an "Equal Opportunity Asshole's Critique of Phil's Beliefs" and did so with an air of authority that was betrayed by statements that left no doubt that I didn't have a clue about what your beliefs actually ARE?
Take a minute and think about that, and hopefully you'll see where I've been coming from and what I've been trying to accomplish here. The only thing I would be "happy to know" is that something I wrote might have helped you realize that you just might not know as much about the thing you're slagging off as you think you do and who knows but maybe it might be a good idea if you looked at the subject a little closer, maybe gain a bit more understanding of it...then maybe you'd understand why it's so important to some of us and even if you DIDN'T have a change of heart concerning the subject, at least you might keep your own sarcastic, derisive comments about it (themselves based on assumptions) to yourself.

I'm sorry to see you duck and run like this, Phil.
I was really looking forward to seeing where this discussion would take us.

[phil]

Better duck and run than have an endless argument
fueled by our irreconciable perceptions of religion ...

[JACkory]

phil said:

Better duck and run than have an endless argument
fueled by our irreconciable perceptions of religion ...

There is a huge difference between civil discourse and an "argument". I was under the impression that this "discussion" fell into the former category.
I have not been argumentative. I have only asked questions that were not given the courtesy of an answer.
Do you really think it's better to duck and run when doing so not only gives the impression that you are unable to answer my questions but leaves me hanging with an incomplete understanding of where you're coming from? The other day you had a strong desire to express your contempt for religion, going to th etrouble of posting your own critique. And yet you apparently do not feel a similar desire to explain and justify your own philosophy when it is questioned.
Okay, fine. As much as I really would like to continue this DISCOURSE (and would indeed enjoy it UNLESS/UNTIL it crossed the line into ARGUMENT) I'll respect your wish to "duck and run"...

But since you have expressed such a disdain for religion (in this thread and really throughout your tenure at RS.com) I would respectfully request that you answer a couple of question for me (pushing my luck, I know, asking you questions, but...)...
WHY do you despise religion as much as you do? Is there an event in your history that turned you from a mere acknowledgement of religion's value to mankind?

...Plus, I STILL really, really want to know where the "internal power" you spoke of comes from. I won't be too disappointed if I don't get an answer to that one (having already given up on the hope that you would ever answer it), but I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to tell me WHY you despise religion with such vehemence.

Thank you and Happy Thanksgiving. May God bless you in abundance and give you much to be thankful for.

[chrisfan]

Jac, why continue trying? Phil has demonstrated for years that he'll mock other's beliefs with snide comments to his hearts content, and even tell you what he thinks via C/P from time to time. But he'll NEVER defend his beliefs in any sort of debate. Why even bother trying?

[Rit]

that may be evidence of Phil's wisdom, then.

Jac, why continue trying? Phil has demonstrated for years that he'll mock other's beliefs with snide comments to his hearts content, and even tell you what he thinks via C/P from time to time. But he'll NEVER defend his beliefs in any sort of debate. Why even bother trying?

you say this like its a bad thing

i'm reminded of what one philosopher said about Voltaire... that his "method" was not to engage any contentious point head on, for that just perpetuates the cycle... Voltaire's fiction did not respond intellectually and win debates. It simply permitted readers to understand instinctively that such arguments were nonsense.

There's no wisdom in erecting huge hard unbending theories of truth (such as religious dogma or any other kind of dogma). By their very inflexibility, those Truths warp and distort everything else.

[JACkory]

I think it's cool that Voltaire's own printing press was used to print Bibles after he died. There's irony for ya.

[Rit]

Jac, perhaps Voltaire was religious afterall, in his heart.
that doesn't mean that he shouldn't have spent his life doing his best to rip down the religious insitutions in France, as he did. The two are not related.

i see no irony in his printing press continuing to print the Good Book after he died.

[Nepenthe]

jackory said:

I think it's cool that Voltaire's own printing press was used to print Bibles after he died. There's irony for ya.

Voltaire had a printing press

Did I miss something?

I thought it was Johannes Gutenberg that improved the printing press in the 1400's and printed Bibles......

[Rit]

you might want to rethink that, Tuatha....

[Nepenthe]

Well, I know he thought that the Bible would cease to exist. But I wasn't aware that he had his own printing press.

[Nepenthe]

Even if I did know right now I am so tired I probably would have forgotten LOL I was up all night finishing a paper on some "Aryans". Then we stuck a turkey in the oven and I slept for about 2 hours. After all of the research I have done on those mummies in China I am starting to wonder if Hitler hadn't gotten wind of them. I guess some German and French dudes were roaming around out in the Tarim Basin and took some pictures of these people.....in the early 1900's. I know his nutty ass was down there in India or Iran measuring people's heads....

[Rit]

what'chu talkin about, Willis?

by the 18th century, there were several and more publishing houses printing all sorts of books, pamphlets, and treatises. Some legally sanctioned, some underground.

porn was also a hot-off-the-press topic for books. This is true.

[kmc]

Man, this is super late. Hope there is still some kind of discussion going on...

1) Do you believe in God? No, but mainly because I see no reason to.

2) Do you think reason and faith are radically distinct? I do, but not in any sort of way that betrays a bias toward either one. I have faith in a bunch of things, such as the supremacy of literature over other artistic media. I just don't happen to find any need to believe in any mystical dude in a book.

3) What religion, if any, do you practice? (Or, perhaps, if you're a nonbeliever, what religion were you raised in? Or what religion does your family practice?) I was raised Roman Catholic, but willingly and happily do not practice. It's all good for other people to practice. I can't be bothered to spend an hour every Sunday listening to rehashed, oversimplified truths.

4) How important are religious questions to you? If we mean philosophical questions over the validity of certain beliefs, they are very important to me. I love good philosophical debates. But a question over anyone's specific beliefs is peripherally important at best, unless those beliefs specifically offend me.

5) Have you ever seriously doubted your own religious beliefs? (that applies to atheists/agnostics too!) I would not conform to Catholic moral code, as it was an affront to my intelligence and what I saw with my own two eyes. Roman Catholicism, for example, still certainly treats women as second class when compared with men. I don't view women in this way. It still holds on to a belief that the homosexual lifestyle is sinful and undesirable. I don't see it as any different than heterosexuality. Eventually I just quit that entire religious business and started thinking for myself and looking for answers somewhere else.

6) Do you think the differences between religions are major and important, or do you think that most religions share the same basic principles, and the differences beyond that are unimportant? The differences are extremely important. Basic principles aside, the devil, as always, is in the details. The differences between evangelicals and Roman Catholics, for example, help explain why one group supports the war in Iraq, and another officially stands against it.

7) Do you believe in heaven and hell? No

8) Do you attend religious services with any regularity? What kind? No, thank you.

9) Have you ever attended religious services for a religion besides your own? Which one? What did you make of it? No, I haven't. I was Catholic till I was 18, then I quit religion altogether.

10) How important to you are shared religious beliefs in relationships? If you consider my agnosticism a religion, then it's not that important. Still, any girlfriend/wife of mine will have to share a certain liberal outlook on things. I tried dating someone with a different worldview than mine, and it was a failure. I can be with a theist. But I can't be with someone who uses that set of beliefs to mistreat others.
11) Does it matter to you if political leaders are religious? Not at all. I would love an agnostic President.

12) True or false: the world would be a better a place if all religions just disappeared overnight. False. If it weren't religion, it would be sports, or money, or race. We will forever find ways to divide ourselves into tiny enclaves.

[Nepenthe]

ritalinpants said:

what'chu talkin about, Willis?

by the 18th century, there were several and more publishing houses printing all sorts of books, pamphlets, and treatises. Some legally sanctioned, some underground.

porn was also a hot-off-the-press topic for books. This is true.

Oiy! I know that. I just did't know the part about Voltaire having a press used to print Bibles after he died.

[Nepenthe]

The differences between evangelicals and Roman Catholics, for example, help explain why one group supports the war in Iraq, and another officially stands against it.

I didn't know Catholics were against the war. Do you mean the Pope and the papacy or all Catholics? They have no problems with raping children and running around shooting each other though (Mafia, and other gangs).