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Post by kmc on Aug 30, 2005 16:58:32 GMT -5
But at the same time, seeing as how there is no such thing as uniform Christian thought, it is a broad and fallacious argument to argue that Thorn is completely wrong in his assertions. After all, the Roman Catholic Church (the world's biggest collection of Christians) stood in very vocal opposition to the war in Iraq. The Church's opposition carries so much weight with world opinion, of course, that I remember it prompting Bill O'Reilly (quite possibly one of the world's worst sane Catholics) to condemn the pope on his show.
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Artknocker
Underground Idol
"No bloviating--that's my job."
Posts: 320
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Post by Artknocker on Aug 30, 2005 17:09:23 GMT -5
What protocols? What shit did we let pile up? Are you blaming America for 9/11? Are you saying we brought all this on ourselves?
Now, it really CAN'T get any simpler than this:
I believe the reason we got into this mess in the first place was that terrorists attacked us on 9/11. Whatever twisted justification they had for it and whatever twisted spin you want to put on it, WE DID NOT DESERVE IT! But anyone associated with Al-Qaeda deserves whatever we bring to them.
That is what I believe, m'k? It's simple. Straightforward. Practical. Easy to understand. Now, it sounds like you trust the terrorists' logic more than our own administration's; hence you're more against us than you are with us, and that's some scary shit in its own right.
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Post by Thorngrub on Aug 30, 2005 17:29:56 GMT -5
What you just posted is just as scary art, really it is.
I assure you I possess the patience and goodwill to hack our way through this - this discussion on a board -- and I must remind you that the "big picture", if you will, is pretty big. Therefore we won't stand a chance of getting to the point where we can each see the other's side (regardless of whether or not we agree), unless we both practice this sort of patience through to the end. And from the looks of what I posted and you just posted, it's goan be a looooong doooozy, but I'm prepared if you are. It could take days.
I'm cool
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Post by Thorngrub on Aug 30, 2005 17:40:28 GMT -5
Where do I begin?
You asked what protocols? I repeat: Forgiveness, love, compassion, faith in God, turning the other cheek, that "shit"; those protocols.
Why were they there in the first place, huh? To while away the hours, for no good reason?
NO. They were TAUGHT because HAD WE FOLLOWED those simple rules-to-live-by, we may have never gotten to the point we are today.
I'm realizing the futility in getting across this belief to you, now. So let me try responding to YOUR beliefs, maybe that'll work better.
Lemme try and break it down with good will, m'k? :
"I believe the reason we got into this mess in the first place was that terrorists attacked us on 9/11. Whatever twisted justification they had for it and whatever twisted spin you want to put on it, WE DID NOT DESERVE IT! But anyone associated with Al-Qaeda deserves whatever we bring to them." - art
You say "Whatever twisted justification they had for it and whatever twisted spin you want to put on it, WE DID NOT DESERVE IT." So:
~You have no idea as to what their justification is.
~You THINK I'm putting some "twisted spin" on it
~You claim we did not deserve this
Sorry, but since you just admitted to having NO IDEA as to what their justification is, you're talking from sheer heated anger, and you're thinking like a hot head (with all respect). That's understandable! What they did was simply horrific - & there's no excuse for it.
*realizing the futility . . . *
Ah, this ain't goan work out 'tween us art. Hey I'm sure you're a cool guy and everything, you probably swig back a mean kegger & put up a good arm-wrestle. But this ain't goin nowhere. I've tried . . . . .(not today, I mean for years) . . .to no avail.
So you think it sounds like I trust the terrorist's logic more than our own administration's, huh?
*just what the hell do you mean by that anyway, Art?*
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Post by Thorngrub on Aug 30, 2005 17:42:05 GMT -5
"Hence you're more against us than you are with us, that's some scary shit"
NO: THAT IS THE SCARIEST SHIT, RIGHT THERE MAN.
So there you have it:
*I'm right*
*No, I am*
*sticks tongue out*
*nanny nanny boo boo*
And so it goes...
Ken: WHY do I waste my time with these people? WTF
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Post by Thorngrub on Aug 30, 2005 17:45:03 GMT -5
A few posts back I APOLOGIZE to Chrisfan for gettin on my soapbox, and she conveniently breezes RIGHT PAST that and continues choking on her indignant bile for me.
I see you're not interested in maintaining a modicum of civility with me, chrisfan. Whatever floats yer lil boat...
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Post by Thorngrub on Aug 30, 2005 17:45:55 GMT -5
You and Art can hate me until your cows come home. I'll always be here open to getting along. But that's just me . . .a "terrorist sympathizer".  |
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Artknocker
Underground Idol
"No bloviating--that's my job."
Posts: 320
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Post by Artknocker on Aug 30, 2005 18:07:12 GMT -5
What they did was simply horrific - & there's no excuse for it.
There--was that so hard? That's all I'm saying! So you agree there was no justification, in which case, I don't need to know what the fuck it was!
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Post by Mary on Aug 30, 2005 18:34:33 GMT -5
Um, Art, you're conflating two completely different questions:
1) Did the terrorists have any legitimate grievances against the U.S.?
2) Based on these grievances, were their actions justified?
The answer to #1 could be yes, while the answer to #2 could still be ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Really stupid, mundane example to get the point across:
I currently have a grievance against the political science department at Berkeley. Due to various malfunctions with department machinery and bureaucratic issues, a small task I was asked to run ended up taking 6 and a half hours over the course of two days. I was not paid for any of this. I am annoyed.
I'm pretty sure this is a legitimate grievance. However, if I went to the political science department tomorrow with a machine gun and massacred the entire office staff, then proceeded to massacre a few graduate students for good measure, that would be completely, utterly unjustifiable, reprehensible, and, indeed, rather sociopathic.
All the same, it would still be the case that it's unfair for the political science department to use graduate students as menial, uncompensated laborers. My insanely out-of-proportion response to this injustice would not make it any less of an injustice.
Thus, the question of whether it's worth understanding the motivations of terrorists can be separated out from the question of whether terrorism is justified. Just because 9/11 was a totally unjustifiable, horrific act does not mean it should be off-limits to ask questions about the history of America's policies in the Middle East, how they have affected the region, and whether they have been just.
Cheers,
M
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Post by Thorngrub on Aug 30, 2005 18:42:34 GMT -5
You're right, Art: YOU certainly don't need to know. But WE as a nation must strive to Know Our Enemy, for there is true wisdom in that epithet, and Lord knows I don't have the time or will to explain it to you; either you GET it or you don't.
SOME of us actually do dream of a future day when those who USED TO BE our "enemies" have sired further generations of GOOD and DECENT offspring (you DO know that "offspring" means "people". . .like YOU . . .you're "offspring", ya know) who have learned to interact PEACEABLY with all peoples and cultures. WE shall continue to not only dream of this future time, but SOME OF US will continue to work hard at SETTING AN EXAMPLE of goodwill and peace towards all neighbors---> YES, even those who sport TOWELS upon their brows and who grip tightly in their fists M-16 SEMIAUTOMATIC RIFLES ---> THESE especially we will continue to RESPECT (look it up in the dictionary - its an important, complex word) for who they are and we shall ever strive to meet their steely gaze with our own skyblue eyes until the days arrive they PUT DOWN THEIR GUNS and we extend our hands in sympathetic greeting.
Yes, SYMPATHETIC!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ohmigod, everybody RUN, I'm-a-feelin the SYMPATHY FOR THE TERRORISTS, excuse me, the TERRISTS, what are ya gonna do, call an EMERGENCY SUNDAY SCHOOL MEETING, notify HOMELAND SECURITY . . . .
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Artknocker
Underground Idol
"No bloviating--that's my job."
Posts: 320
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Post by Artknocker on Aug 30, 2005 18:50:08 GMT -5
I keep not hearing anyone say what they think these "legitimate grievances" are. (I think it's more of a culture war than anything--they don't like the Americanization infiltration). But since the terrorists are so crazed as to do what they did on 9/11, do you really think any policy change we make can rectify their so-called issues? And since our actions do not justify their actions, should we really spend a lot of time analyzing where WE went wrong? I really don't think that's going to help prevent another 9/11 with these Al-Qaeda nutballs we have to confront.
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Artknocker
Underground Idol
"No bloviating--that's my job."
Posts: 320
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Post by Artknocker on Aug 30, 2005 18:55:24 GMT -5
Speaking of someone who posts with all caps sounding really rational...
you DO know that "offspring" means "people". . .like YOU . . .you're "offspring", ya know)
RESPECT (look it up in the dictionary - its an important, complex word)
You know, Thorn, you really don't have to talk down to me. It's not very RESPECTFUL. Methinks with the way you treat Christians, YOU need to look the word "respect" up. Christians and conservatives are not nearly as dumb as you and some others here (and yes, many elite liberals, too) like to make them out to be.
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Post by chrisfan on Aug 30, 2005 19:09:51 GMT -5
THOSE PROTOCOLS = The teachings of your Lord and "saviour" Jesus christ. But you ain't interested in getting saved in THIS life, huh. Just the NEXT. *shakes head slowly* See U around. . . . You have no grasp of those protocols. So what exactly are you rambling about? Something you've proven to not have a clue about. Why listen to a clueless wonder? |
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Post by RocDoc on Aug 30, 2005 19:28:20 GMT -5
It's so imteresting that Kenny comes up with this really insightful post...
But at the same time, seeing as how there is no such thing as uniform Christian thought, it is a broad and fallacious argument to argue that Thorn is completely wrong in his assertions. After all, the Roman Catholic Church (the world's biggest collection of Christians) stood in very vocal opposition to the war in Iraq. The Church's opposition carries so much weight with world opinion, of course, that I remember it prompting Bill O'Reilly (quite possibly one of the world's worst sane Catholics) to condemn the pope on his show.
....but while trying to defend thorn in saying 'Well how can he be completely wrong'....as the absolute lack of uniformity among various denominations and northern synods and eastern synods n'shit, very likely will make him wrong in his broadside presumptions likely 90% of the time.
These divisions of Christianity is something he's been blowing right past since he began this shit of 'YOU Christians!, You this! You THAT, definitely!! Hypocrite bastiches, you're all the same!'
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Post by kmc on Aug 30, 2005 19:53:51 GMT -5
Oh, but Doc, nowhere did I say I agreed with thorn in his generalizations of Christianity. In fact, I tend to descry generalizations about this most fractured of world religions as wholly ignorant. But let's not pretend that generalizations were not answered with generalizations here.
Wait, what am I saying? You're right.
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