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Post by Fuzznuts on Jun 21, 2006 12:22:56 GMT -5
Yeah, the Heat have been a playoff-caliber team for quite a few years now.
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Post by NdY on Jun 21, 2006 12:24:42 GMT -5
from ESPN
4.. What is Wade's place in NBA history, and how does he compare to Michael Jordan?
Anthony: I felt the comparisons were premature but after watching his performance in the Finals, fair is exactly what those comparisons are. There have been many second comings to His Airness. Penny, Kobe, Vince, T-Mac, LeBron, and now D-Wade. Kobe is talented enough, possesses the killer instinct but the question for me is would he ever be smart enough. Vince, again talented enough, but not sure his will is good enough. LeBron, different animal altogether.
But with Wade we have a young man with the talents, will, and smarts to evolve into possibly the man who future greats will be compared to. If his first performance is any indication Dwyane is ahead of the game.
Broussard: Wade is building toward a hstoric career. To me, his comp is not Michael but LeBron and particularly Kobe. The way I see it, Dwyane and Kobe are vying for second-place on the list of all-time great two guards (LeBron being a 3 and with all due respect to Zeke from Cabin Creek).
I can't compare D-Wade winning a title with Shaq to MJ doing it several times without a dominant big man. Also, MJ dominated an era when there were dominant big men (real post players) in the league. There are only two dominant big men now and one of them is Wade's teammate. For the most part, he's playing against a league of perimeter finesse players, which makes him likely to be more dominant with more gaudy numbers. So Mike is still alone on the throne.
Bucher: Wade, as of right now, is the best player in his draft class and on the verge of being as unstoppable as any guard in the league. Yes, better than LeBron and better than Carmelo. Let's retire the Jordan comparison, shall we? A scoring guard wins a ring, he's the next Jordan. Wade doesn't come close to playing D the way Jordan did, for starters. Maybe he will and maybe he can, but right now he doesn't.
Hollinger: Wade's place right now isn't with Jordan -- it's with Rick Barry and Bill Walton and other guys who dominated a single Finals. If he does it a few more times, then we can talk about the Jordan comparisons more realistically. It's hard to project, because much of it will depend on Wade's ability to withstand the constant pounding he takes.
Legler: Wade's performance has to rank among the all-time greatest performances in NBA Finals history. At just 24 years old he became a superstar and leader right before our eyes. His numbers were sensational, but it was his will and courage to make plays under pressure that we will all be talking about for years to come.
O'Brien: He can approach Jordan but still has a ways to go. His outside shot is not as consistent. Jordan was the best defensive player in the league, by far. Jordan won six rings, so Wade has some catching up to do in this category.
Shanoff: Top 50. Has Wade catapulted himself into an updated version of the NBA's All-Time Top 50? Purists would freak, but if you held an all-time fantasy draft to put together a team, using all players in NBA history, I'll bet he'd be among the first 50 players picked. Meanwhile, it's hard to compare him to MJ until Wade collects a few more rings. However, Wade has him in at least one way: It took Wade only three seasons to carry his team to a title.
Shouler: Since he just led a team to a world championship in his third year, Wade joins all-time greats like Bill Russell (first year), Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (second), Magic Johnson (first), Larry Bird (second) and George Mikan (first). Still he hasn't stood their test of time. Places in history can also be earned statistically, like Wilt Chamberlain's third-year 50.4 scoring average. Wade doesn't own such numbers.
He's not Jordan. In his third year (1987), Jordan averaged 37 points, five rebounds and four assists and was the first ever at any position to log 200 steals and 100 blocks. Wade's 27, 6 and 6 don't come close. Jordan played 15 years; Wade must play 10 before comparisons are made.
Stein: Wade already has a unique place in history. Riles' drought might have never ended if he didn't land this kid with the No. 5 pick in 2003. The Diesel? If Wade didn't take over the Dallas series, Shaq would be only a pedestrian 3-3 in six career trips to the Finals. Mourning? Gary Payton? Antoine Walker? Wade put all of them in position to be champions. This is a different league -- Wade's Heat didn't have multiple East powerhouses in their way like Jordan's Bulls did -- but let's just say he's way ahead of schedule for a third-year swingman.
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Post by RocDoc on Jun 21, 2006 14:24:32 GMT -5
A-fucking-Men.
As a basketball fan lucky enough to have lived in Chicago during the Bulls' championship years, I absolutely fucking love Michael Jordan, yeah....but Wade's performance in this series (and in the previous semis' and quarters' games) was just incredible.
But I also think that Mr Broussard hits it very accurately here:
Broussard:
Wade is building toward a hstoric career. To me, his comp is not Michael but LeBron and particularly Kobe. The way I see it, Dwyane and Kobe are vying for second-place on the list of all-time great two guards (LeBron being a 3 and with all due respect to Zeke from Cabin Creek).
I can't compare D-Wade winning a title with Shaq to MJ doing it several times without a dominant big man. Also, MJ dominated an era when there were dominant big men (real post players) in the league. There are only two dominant big men now and one of them is Wade's teammate. For the most part, he's playing against a league of perimeter finesse players, which makes him likely to be more dominant with more gaudy numbers. So Mike is still alone on the throne.
I still hated seeing Miami and Shaq win...tho Riley IMO deserved it.
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Post by pauledwardwagemann on Jun 22, 2006 11:25:21 GMT -5
A Broussard: I can't compare D-Wade winning a title with Shaq to MJ doing it several times without a dominant big man. Also, MJ dominated an era when there were dominant big men (real post players) in the league. There are only two dominant big men now and one of them is Wade's teammate. For the most part, he's playing against a league of perimeter finesse players, which makes him likely to be more dominant with more gaudy numbers. So Mike is still alone on the throne.
Actually doesnt this last argument support the case for Wade? Wade is having to go up against some of the greatest players ever; strongest, biggest, fastest, the Kobe's, the Iverson's, the Ray Allens, the McGradys, the Labrons, the Paul Pierce's. Who was Jordan schooling? The Craig Ehlos and the Jeff Horneseks? The Danny Ainge's? |
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Post by Galactus on Jun 22, 2006 11:27:50 GMT -5
A Broussard: I can't compare D-Wade winning a title with Shaq to MJ doing it several times without a dominant big man. Also, MJ dominated an era when there were dominant big men (real post players) in the league. There are only two dominant big men now and one of them is Wade's teammate. For the most part, he's playing against a league of perimeter finesse players, which makes him likely to be more dominant with more gaudy numbers. So Mike is still alone on the throne.
Actually doesnt this last argument support the case for Wade? Wade is having to go up against some of the greatest players ever; strongest, biggest, fastest, the Kobe's, the Iverson's, the Ray Allens, the McGradys, the Labrons, the Paul Pierce's. Who was Jordan schooling? The Craig Ehlos and the Jeff Horneseks? The Danny Ainge's? I don't know much about Basketball but it seems that's the exact oppisite of what he said. |
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Post by rockysigman on Jun 22, 2006 11:30:38 GMT -5
You're right, PEW, Jordan didn't play against any great players. Oh wait, something just occurred to me:
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Charles Barkley
Isiah Thomas
Clyde Drexler
Hakeem Olajuwon
Patrick Ewing
Karl Malone
Robert Parrish
David Robinson
John Stockton
James Worthy
You're right. That was a really shitty era of basketball players.
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Post by pauledwardwagemann on Jun 22, 2006 12:01:59 GMT -5
You're right, PEW, Jordan didn't play against any great players. Oh wait, something just occurred to me: Magic Johnson Larry Bird Charles Barkley Isiah Thomas Clyde Drexler Hakeem Olajuwon Patrick Ewing Karl Malone Robert Parrish David Robinson John Stockton James Worthy You're right. That was a really shitty era of basketball players. The point was that Wade is going against better 'finese' perimeter players, out of your list I really only qualify Clyde the Glide in that catagory or faster, quicker, stronger players on par with Jordan or Wade. Mitch Richmond was another. |
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Post by NdY on Jun 22, 2006 12:21:31 GMT -5
His point was that Wade doesn't have to play against dominant big men -- particularly in the paint -- hence him being able to use his size to his advantage on the perimeter and down low.
You're reading compredhension, much like your logic skills, leaves a lot to be desired.
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Post by NdY on Jun 22, 2006 12:22:41 GMT -5
Wade is having to go up against some of the greatest players ever; strongest, biggest, fastest, the Kobe's, the Iverson's, the Ray Allens, the McGradys, the Labrons, the Paul Pierce's. Also, quoted for it's pure stupidity. |
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Post by kmc on Jun 22, 2006 12:34:00 GMT -5
You're right, PEW, Jordan didn't play against any great players. Oh wait, something just occurred to me: Magic Johnson Larry Bird Charles Barkley Isiah Thomas Clyde Drexler Hakeem Olajuwon Patrick Ewing Karl Malone Robert Parrish David Robinson John Stockton James Worthy You're right. That was a really shitty era of basketball players. The point was that Wade is going against better 'finese' perimeter players, out of your list I really only qualify Clyde the Glide in that catagory or faster, quicker, stronger players on par with Jordan or Wade. Mitch Richmond was another. Incredible. |
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Post by pauledwardwagemann on Jun 22, 2006 12:36:11 GMT -5
His point was that Wade doesn't have to play against dominant big men -- particularly in the paint -- hence him being able to use his size to his advantage on the perimeter and down low. You're reading compredhension, much like your logic skills, leaves a lot to be desired. No my point is that its much easier for a perimeter player to score on a big man than it is for him to score on another perimeter player. How often was Ewing or Akeem or Karl Malone guarding Jordan one on one? |
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Post by NdY on Jun 22, 2006 13:23:27 GMT -5
For Dwayne Wade, a player whose game relies heavily on driving to the lane and scoring in the paint (or getting to the line), you'd better believe the lack of quality big men helps his game. Particularly, as I've already pointed out, since he uses his size as an advantage down low. I'll give you a hint, Wade's field goal % wasn't a result of consistently hitting outside jumpers (though he's above average in that regard).
Wade's quickness is what gets him by his initial defender. When he does this, in theory, it's the big men down low who are supposed to stop him. Broussard's point is that there are none these days.
Also, just to address your post specifically, TMac and Iverson are average at best perimeter defenders (not that AI would ever guard him). Pierce is okay but is more of a 3. Lebron plays the three and would never guard him unless it was a last shot situation. The only premier perimeter defenders in the game today are Kobe, Artest (who's a three but usually guards the two), and Bowen. Raja Bell's close. That's it.
So there goes that defense too.
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Post by NdY on Jun 22, 2006 13:28:21 GMT -5
And all of this circular shit is bypassing the real issue, which is that the Finals were geared to get him the ring. Maybe not him in particular, but a player of his stature. There's not a single argument on earth that can defend how often he got to the line. It's a sham, and probably the last time in a while that I watch the NBA finals. The first two rounds? Sign me up. Everything after that is questionable at best.
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Post by rockysigman on Jun 22, 2006 14:59:10 GMT -5
The early rounds of this years playoffs were unbelievable, but I didn't have much interest in the Finals. Probably because my team lost in the Conference Finals, but I'm willing to attribute it to the series sucking.
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Post by pauledwardwagemann on Jun 22, 2006 15:48:47 GMT -5
For Dwayne Wade, a player whose game relies heavily on driving to the lane and scoring in the paint (or getting to the line), you'd better believe the lack of quality big men helps his game. Particularly, as I've already pointed out, since he uses his size as an advantage down low. I'll give you a hint, Wade's field goal % wasn't a result of consistently hitting outside jumpers (though he's above average in that regard). Wade's quickness is what gets him by his initial defender. When he does this, in theory, it's the big men down low who are supposed to stop him. Broussard's point is that there are none these days. Also, just to address your post specifically, TMac and Iverson are average at best perimeter defenders (not that AI would ever guard him). Pierce is okay but is more of a 3. Lebron plays the three and would never guard him unless it was a last shot situation. The only premier perimeter defenders in the game today are Kobe, Artest (who's a three but usually guards the two), and Bowen. Raja Bell's close. That's it. So there goes that defense too. First of all Paul Pierce is a great defender, one of the best in the league. Second of all I dont buy this bull that there arent as many good big men in the game today as when Jordan was around (Yao Ming and Shaq will go down in history as two of the best 10 to ever play that position). Also the game is tailored today so as not to showcase the bigman due to rule changes like the Zone defences--which actually make it even harder to score in the paint. Also when Jordan would beat an inital defender, the big man in the paint was then required to come over to double team him--a very vulnerable position in terms of getting burned by a crossover a or a quick 2-guard move. It also leaves the player that the big man was guarding more open for a pass--something that Wade does better than Jordan did (look at the assists statistics or just watch some highlights of both and compare). |
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