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Post by tuneschick on Aug 26, 2004 7:48:57 GMT -5
I do quite enjoy this conversation... sorry to go back again...
Yeah Mary, Steve and I will have been together 6 1/2 years by the time we get married. But like you said, that length of time isn't really a guarantee of anything at all, as demonstrated by your friend, even though there were warning signs, and S's friend who's wife cheated on him after 7 or so years of marriage, and 7 years of dating before that.
I personally have no doubts about getting married, or that this is the person I want to to see every day for the rest of my/his life. It's not something I take lightly... but then again, how many people get married expecting that they'll split up someday?
It's interesting to think that anyone would equate marrying "early" or "late" with maturity or lack thereof... if anything, the few couples that I've seen get married really young (including one couple who got married the summer after graduating high school) were seriously lacking in the maturity department and didn't see to give much thought to marriage beyond the dream wedding and honeymoon.
And again, that's obviously not to say that EVERY couple who gets married young is this way - I'm sure there are mature couples who marry young and are ridiculously happy and in love for the rest of their lives.
I don't know, marriage has never really been a consideration with any of my friends - they're really all over the map, so to speak, when it comes to relationships, as I expect a lot of groups of friends are. The thought that some of us are more mature because we're married or getting married is absolutely beyond me. I think it's far more mature and responsible to choose NOT to have a relationship or get married because you're not ready at a given point in time - than to jump into a relationship "just because" you feel you have to.
And Mary, if S and I were to break up, it'd be a long, LONG time before I'd be ready to date again. I can only imagine that was a pretty serious adjustment period for you.
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Post by tuneschick on Aug 26, 2004 7:51:02 GMT -5
And Niamh, that really is an extraordinary situation you found yourself in - and yes, is eerily similar to the situation of my friend in India! I'm glad you're on your own now though, which I'm sure makes such a difference in starting to get over him and move on.  |
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JACkory
Struggling Artist
Posts: 167
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Post by JACkory on Aug 26, 2004 8:51:24 GMT -5
Great opening tracks:
"Baba O'Riley"---The Who (Who's Next...This album may take the prize for having both the best opening track AND the best closing track ("Won't Get Fooled Again"). Those two songs sandwich the rest of the album like the bread on a Schlotszki's Original.
"Grace Cathedral Park"---Red House Painters (Red House Painters {aka Rollercoaster})...Still my favourite RHP song and one that makes me want to hear everything Kozelek has ever done.
"Brown Sugar"---The Rolling Stones (Sticky Fingers)...a real toss-up between this one and "Rocks Off" as Best Stones Opening Track. That initial riff is priceless, and every bit as infectuous as Richards' signature trademark "Satisfaction".
"Atrocity Exhibition"---Joy Division (Closer)...I always felt this song summed up the Joy Division ethos perfectly. This is another album with a killer opening AND closing track ("Decades").
"Like A Rolling Stone"---Bob Dylan (Highway 61 Revisited)...the fact that Dylan was able to lead off an album with this classic and that critics consider it, in it's entirety, to be one of the best albums of all time is a testament to Dylan's incredible talent.
"Thunder Road"---Bruce Springsteen (Born To Run)...when I was younger I could never understand why "Thunder Road" was the opener with the title track opening the second side of the album. That was back before I understood Springsteen's methodology as well as I do now. "Thunder Road" is the prologue to the whole saga.
"The Musical Box"---Genesis (Nursery Cryme)...with this song Genesis earned their place in the pantheon of great prog-rock bands. Bombastic, overblown, maybe even a tad pretentious, but I love it, love it, love it!
"The Grudge"---TOOL (Lateralus)...another difficult choice between this and "Stinkfist" as TOOL's best opener. I just don't think the latter is quite up to the quality of the rest of Aenima, while "The Grudge" is, IMO, one of the best tracks on "Lateralus".
"Reel Around The Fountain"---The Smiths (The Smiths...yet another instance of exceptionally great opners AND closers ("Suffer Little Children" may be my all-time favourite Smiths' track). "Reel..." is the perfect introduction to what you're in for if you decide to get into the Smiths.
"Air Bag"---Radiohead (OK Computer)..."Everything In It's Right Place" just barely beaten out by this one. The sampled and re-sequenced acoustic drum line in this song and the funky minimalist bass line put it over the top for me.
...I could do this all day long, but I've got a solo acoustic set to do tonight at a club in OKC and I need to put together a set list and rehearse a little. But before I go, here's a list of 10 cover songs I'm going to do tonight:
1. Like A Rolling Stone (Bob Dylan)
2. Love Will Tear Us Apart (Joy Division)
3. Glenn Tipton (Sun Kil Moon)
4. Mistress (Red House Painters)
5. Wild Horses (Rolling Stones)
6. The River (Bruce Springsteen)
7. Long Black Veil (Lefty Frizzell)
8. Wish You Were Here (Pink Floyd)
9. Behind Blue Eyes (The Who)
10. Ripple (Grateful Dead)
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Post by samplestiltskin on Aug 26, 2004 9:45:45 GMT -5
Good 5th song on Dummy = Wandering Star. Oh what a good groove, the lead singer chick whose name escapes me is so sexy.
Hope Sandoval, I'm thinking. And she sure is.
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Post by Mary on Aug 26, 2004 9:48:23 GMT -5
God, I can't imagine breaking up with someone and still living with them - what a tough situation. I'm sorry you went through that niamh, and tunes, I hope your friend finds a way out soon!!
Let me also just add that I'm not some radical anti-marriage bitter wacko. I don't want a society that condemns or rejects marriage, I just want one that's more open and respectful of other kinds of relationships, lifestyles, and families. One that recognizes that 40-something women who aren't married aren't necessarily radically incomplete or tragic. One that recognizes that a group of 30-something friends living together might derive great fulfillment from that living arrangement, that it's not a sign of arrested development. One that recognizes that people who don't believe in lifelong relationships can still be happy and functional and mature. And of course one that respects gay and queer lifestyles just as much as traditional heterosexual ones.
The problem I have with the way marriage functions in society today is that it's viewed as the ultimate goal for everyone - part of the proper path of life. And the result is that people like my friend, who once harbored serious doubts about marriage as an institution, wind up going through with it anyway because they start to feel like there's something wrong with them if they don't, because they feel like their relationships aren't quite legitimate until the rings have been exchanged.
I am happy to go to friends' weddings when I think they're really happy and in love - I want my friends to be happy, obviously. Like any good wedding guest, I even cry when people exchange their vows! But the one thing I hate at traditional weddings is the bouquet toss, which seems to capture perfectly all the ideological presuppositions of marriage in our society. The idea that every unmarried girl at the wedding wants to be the next to get married. The idea that it's some sort of competition - the earlier you get married, the happier you'll be, the better off you are. You'll be the first to conquer loneliness (as if marriage is a cure for loneliness!) It's this ideological apparatus around marriage that bothers me, not marriage itself.
Cheers,
M
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Post by tuneschick on Aug 26, 2004 9:59:50 GMT -5
But the one thing I hate at traditional weddings is the bouquet toss, which seems to capture perfectly all the ideological presuppositions of marriage in our society. Oh my god, I couldn't agree more. I refuseto have the bouquet toss at my wedding (nor am I having a garter toss, for that matter). I expect only about 5 or 6 single women - if that - at my wedding, and really don't feel it's necessary to single them out. I'm either going to divide my bouquet and give half to my mom and half to Steve's - or I'm going to give it to his grandma, in honour of her nearly 60 years of marriage. it just seems a little more meaningful to me than making my girlfriends run around trying to catch a bunch of flowers! |
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Post by phil on Aug 26, 2004 10:16:22 GMT -5
Ahhh ! But those two events make for such great photo opportunities ...
That and the Cake Squashing in the Face tradition !Ö!
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Post by tuneschick on Aug 26, 2004 10:20:35 GMT -5
OK, nothing is quite as exciting to me today as this:  The new Social D album is FINALLY coming out on September 28. I am the most stoked girl in the world. ;D And I had no idea that they just put out a live DVD! I am on my way right now to try and track it down. |
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Post by lumencandle on Aug 26, 2004 10:35:51 GMT -5
About the bouguet toss thing:
I'm so glad there are otehrs who are as heartily annoyed by this tradition! I refuse to do it, too. Except at my one friend's wedding in May, her dad was all offended that I was skipping it...I pretended to participate in it at the last wedding because there were so few of us in attendance and everyone was gonna throw a coniption, but we all agreed to let the groom's 10-year-old sister catch it...I always figured I'd just give my bouquet to a flower girl or my little cousin or my mom or something anyway, only without the fuss.
It's just so degrading, the bouquet toss!
But I agree with everything Mary said (geez, do I always sound like such a boot-licker? i'm kidding) about marriage. I'm not all staunchly against it, and if my friends are happy, that's fine. I just know I'm obviously not ready for it any time soon.
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niamh
Streetcorner Musician
aka sunnygirl
Posts: 49
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Post by niamh on Aug 26, 2004 11:09:03 GMT -5
Gah, I don't know how you work posters do it! Whilst at work (which is where I am now) , there's no way I'd be able to type such lengthy and in depth posts as you all! I guess it doesn't help that both of my bosses have offices within view of my computer screen...
At times it was hellish living with my ex while we were both painfully aware it was over, especially in the last month or so. It was definitely one of those experiences I wouldn't have gone through if I had any idea how emotionally draining and difficult it would be. Not something I'd recommend to anyone. The thing is, it postpones the healing and moving on with one's life. People would assume I'd be over him by now, but really it's only been 3 weeks since we've been living truly separate lives.
ueb - I can relate to appreciating the advantages of have distance between you and your boyfriend. I think things were much more exciting for Andrew and I when I was living at school and he 30 mins away. Upon moving in together, there was a certain routine to things that actually may have contributed to the downturn of our relationship. Yikes, that sounds so negative! Sigh.
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Post by phil on Aug 26, 2004 11:13:50 GMT -5
In 16 months(dec/05), Better-Half and I will celebrate
20 years of "living in sin" or shackin'up together,
whatever you wanna call it ...
Maybe we'll get married then just to get a free honeymoon as a wedding gift ...
(We have all the kitchen appliances we need ...!Ö!)
Naaahhh ! Won't happen ...
She'd want to go sunbathing
on some Cuban beach
eating pineapple and scampi
drinking Cuba Libre
while I'd insist on going skiing
in the Italian Alps, eating Cheese fondue
and drinking Valpolicella red wine ...
We'll probably just save the money
and bring the boys to NYC for a week instead ...
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Post by bowiglou on Aug 26, 2004 11:15:17 GMT -5
waddya mean RN, that I have "funny" way of putting things..give me a big kiss ya chiro-meshuganah..........now, go look that up in your Yiddish Dictionary)
JAC...good luck on your solo show...great song list......
gawd, munching on a gala apple right now, and damn, they are good!!
Mary tunes lumen et al...., I adored, simply adored, all your comments about relationships, marriage, and boquet tossing (which we DID not do at our wedding a few months back)...........first of all, what has changed radically the last 30 years is the number of women (1) getting graduate degrees and/or (2) entering the workplace as a career as opposed to a stopgap measure until they find "mr right" and have 35.46 little RN's and phils and marys and punkchicks and lumens and maarts and tunes, etc etc....and/or (3) women, who have entered the workplace and deciding to have a family having kids well into their 30s and early 40s (though, as I experienced when we lost twins due to twin-twin transfusion, the risks go up exponentially when couples BOTH in their 40s attempt to bear child).........so giving that changing census, we see women marrying in their 30s which doesn't (at least in more urbanized areas) make anyone flinch......as opposed to 30 or so years ago, they'd think ya some type of spinster!!.................and I do think as Mary nicely put it, and I was alluding to "different strokes for different folks".....some of us may choose to marry...some not...some may have kids..some not.............after my divorce, I knew I wanted to marry again, but with much more caution and no sense of urgency, even though in the back of my mind, after raising two wonderful step-kids with my ex for 7 years, I knew I couldn't wait too much longer if I wanted to have children, which I was considering. However, I am now 47 years old, my wife is 45, she has two children and a very busy practice, and having kids (which my mom inquired about last night!!) just isn't in the cards................so maybe to some degree I lost out on a major life event, but it was my choice........I waited until 36 years old to get married, and quite frankly, was in no hurry to do such......and though I love kids, to be very honest, I don't feel any pangs of should of/could of/would of regrets...............we make decisions, then damn right you have to live with them...............
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Post by lumencandle on Aug 26, 2004 11:50:59 GMT -5
Bow (and I mean this in the least predatory way) you're wife is a lucky woman! That was the absolute sweetest post ever. And BTW, I would never have thought you were, 47 did you say? Not that that's even remotely old, but you seem (and look) much younger. And so does your wife!
I sometimes reconsider how I always say I never want children...Yet I somehow still think it's just a fleeting fancy, I still feel pretty strongly that I'd be a wretched parent and would like not to have kids. but I don't want to wake up one day and have never had the opportunity, either, if that makes any sense. It's all about choises, i suppose.
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Post by lumencandle on Aug 26, 2004 11:52:07 GMT -5
one day I'm gonna master that typing thing, I am...
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Post by Mary on Aug 26, 2004 12:23:51 GMT -5
lumen is right (as always.... i think perhaps we share a brain??) - that was a wonderful post, mr. iglou! And your story of meeting your wife after all this time is very inspiring And lumen, I understand very much what you're saying about not being totally sure if you really don't want kids. I don't like to make statements with absolute certainty about major life decisions like that in my 20s. I think people tend to say a lot of very absolutist, rigid things when they are young, but it's really just too difficult to know what we will be like, or what circumstances will be like, far in the future. Too often you end up eating your words, or just realizing that your youthful vehemence was more a product of contingent circumstances at the time. (sooo many straight-edge kids who swore on their lives they'd never touch alcohol or drugs have fallen.... sooo many kids who swore their fidelity to abstinence have fallen as soon as they enter a real relationship.... the same sort of fundamentalism and puritanism can be applied to seemingly progressive positions as well, like not wanting to have kids or to get married, and i'm just wary of that kind of fundamentalism when we're still young and haven't really experienced so many of the things that will change us...) So despite all my wariness and ambivalence about marriage, I don't say "I will never get married" - I just don't know. It certainly won't happen in the near future. I could see feeling the same way about children - that it might be difficult to fathom raising children now, and you might have so many other goals and aspirations in your life at the moment, but all the same, will you feel the same way 10 years down the line? It's very hard to say. Well anyway I head back to SF tomorrow, and honestly these discussions on RS while I'm just killing time in Boston have been really revealing and interesting! So thanks guys for quashing my boredom and giving me lots to think about ...oh yes and I am excited about seeing the boy again. He has been away on a research trip to the Pacific coast for the past few days, so we've had no contact at all since sunday - no email or phone or anything - and I find myself really really missing that communication. soooo i don't know, but something is happening here!!!! Cheers, M |
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