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Post by bowiglou on Sept 30, 2005 13:38:44 GMT -5
LMAO Bowiglou! At least you know enough not to take ol' Jimbo too seriously. nah ken...I do have some semblance of temperance.......but admittedly, circa 1967-1968 I did take them rather seriously..You know, REALLY trying to get a grip on the lyrics...but damn, I guess I misspelled that author (in fact I do have one book from him when I got some recommendations from Blaney-meister)...now before Mary reads it I could easily modify the post, and then you would be the one that looks abejctly confused..but I won't do that to you Ken........ and strat-0, I'm glad you were touched..........I'm just an eternal fount of profundity........ |
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Post by RocDoc on Sept 30, 2005 14:50:54 GMT -5
That's 'font'...
Heh-heh...
Mr Ed et al was the crowning touch...imagined with the beleathered one's screaming intensity..
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Post by bowiglou on Sept 30, 2005 16:55:29 GMT -5
That's 'font'... Heh-heh... Mr Ed et al was the crowning touch...imagined with the beleathered one's screaming intensity.. COOL..I get to counter-correct RN...my chicago DC, take a look at your most accessibel dictionary, and find FOUNT..you will see it means 'source' exactly what I meant'.. HA HA HA....how about some humble - pie RN!!!!!!!! |
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ClubberLang
Struggling Artist
think for yourself, question authority
Posts: 288
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Post by ClubberLang on Sept 30, 2005 17:18:31 GMT -5
what's you guys beef with The Doors? I've never seen so much hatred for such an influential band. You realize you wouldn't have Iggy Pop if it wasn't for The Doors? You realize that most of your frontmen would be fucking stiffs on stage if it wasn't for Jim Morrison?
Is it the rivalry with VU? The Doors got all the attention and it took away from Nico and her smelly puss?(that Jim rammed his dick in multiple times) And if i hear about Jim being a "drunken shitty poet" i'm gonna really lose it. His poetry is way less wankish than the BLIPs and BEEPS on those artsy-fartsy Radiohead songs, that's for sure. So what's the beef? And where is the beef?
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Post by luke on Sept 30, 2005 17:19:41 GMT -5
It's what's for dinner.
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Post by rockysigman on Sept 30, 2005 17:25:44 GMT -5
what's you guys beef with The Doors? I've never seen so much hatred for such an influential band. You realize you wouldn't have Iggy Pop if it wasn't for The Doors? You realize that most of your frontmen would be fucking stiffs on stage if it wasn't for Jim Morrison? Is it the rivalry with VU? The Doors got all the attention and it took away from Nico and her smelly puss?(that Jim rammed his dick in multiple times) And if i hear about Jim being a "drunken shitty poet" i'm gonna really lose it. His poetry is way less wankish than the BLIPs and BEEPS on those artsy-fartsy Radiohead songs, that's for sure. So what's the beef? And where is the beef? Everyone is well aware that Iggy Pop was influenced by Jim Morrison. But just because he influenced him doesn't mean he wasn't totally eclipsed by him. Iggy did that whole schtick a thousand times better than Jimbo. So did Scott Weiland for that matter. And a bunch of others. Being influential is cool, but it doesn't he was good. And I didn't even really know there was a "rivalry" between the VU and the Doors. The Doors were a good band, but not a great one, and I just get really annoyed when a very, very mediocre lyricist like Jim Morrison is worshipped by legions of people for writing stuff that's about the same as stuff that I've seen dozens of stoned high school kids scribble on the back of their notebooks in English class. I like Robbie Krieger. I like Ray Manzarek's playing (although every time I hear him speak he says something ridiculous--no one thinks that the Doors were more important than Ray Manzarek does, of that I'm sure). John Densmore was okay. And Jim Morrison was a very good singer, with an excellent voice, and a big pile of so-so lyrics that somehow got a reputation for being a good lyricist. It's not that I don't like them, it's that I just think they're one of the most overrated groups of the rock era. |
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Post by Galactus on Sept 30, 2005 17:27:49 GMT -5
I don't buy the "no Doors no Iggy" thing...the same way I don't buy that VU cuased everyone who ever saw them to start a band. IMO The Doors just aren't that good, they're not very interesting and Jim's peotry is crap, which i wouldn't have problem with if every Doors fan didn't insist on telling me how great is poetry is. I respect both the Doors and VU for their influences I just don't think either of them are anything that special outside of that. I rarely get the urge to listen to VU and when I do I stop when Lou starts singing about sucking on his ding dong. I don't dsilike either one. I guess they're both bands that either you get the joke or you don't. I guess I don't.
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Post by rockysigman on Sept 30, 2005 17:30:06 GMT -5
Well, Iggy has said flat out that seeing the Doors perform in Ann Arbor in 1967 ('66?) really made a big impact on him, and I believe him. But sometimes the student is better than the teacher, and that is certainly the case with Iggy and Jimbo.
The Velvet Underground though...shit, I don't listen to them much anymore (mostly because I know all their songs inside and out) but I don't think I've ever turned them off. Lou Reed really is one of rock's great poets, IMO.
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ClubberLang
Struggling Artist
think for yourself, question authority
Posts: 288
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Post by ClubberLang on Sept 30, 2005 17:43:36 GMT -5
I don't think Morrison's poetry is very good, i don't think it is bad but i don't think it is that great either. That's not why i love The Doors though. Not every Doors fan likes the Doors because of Jim's lyrics. Some of his lyrics suck(just listen to "Do It"). Some of them are great though, even something as simple as People are Strange. Jim had a vision and the band played it to perfection behind them. Plus they changed their sound on every album. The transformation of the band was incredible. They didn't care that the crowd wanted Light My Fire 2, they did their own thing. Then you have Morrison who would fuck with authority every chance he got. He'd challenge cops on stage, he'd to the line with every show, The Doors were banned from playing certain cities because of the Miami incident, then Jim transforms himsel;f into a bearded alchi who wanted nothing to do with the teeny-bopper kids who were going to his shows. The integrity and the vision him and the band had means more to me than any band i've ever listened to. Plus the music and the albums are all classics in my mind. Maybe VU was better(matter of opinion in my mind), maybe Iggy took it further(he probably did but at the time nobody took it further than Jim), but to me The doors combined all of it wioth better songs better albums and a better legacy.
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Post by Kensterberg on Sept 30, 2005 18:13:13 GMT -5
I'm probably going to regret taking the time for this, but ...
The Doors, IMHO, sucked. They were arguably the worst band ever to acquire any sort of critical credibility or lasting following in all of rock and roll. And I use the term "rock and roll" very loosely here, as the band frankly sounded more at home in a bad cocktail jazz setting than with anything resembling real rock and roll. Similarly, Morrison's vocals are among the sloppiest and most mannered in rock, and his words were (as Rocky pointed out earlier) sophomoric at best. What you wound up with was a band that was too laid back to really rock, and too technically limited to actually play jazz, or even complex rock, well (just listen to Manzanarek's interminable solo through Light My Fire). Finally, the band never managed to convey any emotion authentically. The Doors sucked.
Morrison's act may have been influential, but there's a big difference between influence and "good." And to tell the difference, all you need to do is compare Jimbo's drunken shamblings with the livewire performances of Iggy Pop. Iggy may have been the learner, but he quickly became the master. Also, while Iggy has admitted the inspiration that Morrison provided, I have little doubt that if Jimbo hadn't come up with this schtick c. '66, someone else would have. It was just too much a part of the cultural zeitgeist. But maybe this Bizarro-world Morrison might have been able to create coherent lyrics, and dropped the insanely pretentious drivel. Lizard King my ass. More like drunken accident, on the rare ocassions when it worked, and contrived pretentious twaddle the rest of the time. To throw out a few more names of folks who easily surpassed Morrison at his own schtick (BTW, great call on Scott Weiland, Rocky), there was the Liverpool scene of the early eighties, with Julian Cope fronting The Teardrop Explodes and Ian McCulloch with Echo and the Bunnymen who did everything the Doors did AND rocked. And John Doe and Exene Cervanka chronicled the entire decadent SoCal scene so well as to render not just Morrison but almost anyone else superfluous. (And John Doe also put his baritone voice to much better use than Morrison ever did. Nothing in the Doors catalog can touch the expressiveness and range that Doe showed on cuts like the demo of Cyrano De Berger's Back, Poor Girl, and Adult Books, along with scorchers like Johnny Hit and Run Paulene).
And all of these folks have one other great advantage over Morrison. They went out at least as far (if not further) into the darkness at the edge of rock, and came back with real tales to tell. Cope's mental oddysey is psycho-drama feature film stuff, and much more engrossing than Morrison's bathetic (and all too ordinary) fall into alcoholism. And if you want to talk about rock and roll addictions leading to death, Morrison again looks merely like an ordinary drunk (and frankly, not even a very good ordinary drunk) compared to the stories from Seattle (Kurt and Layne, and the guy who used to front what became Pearl Jam [shit! can't remember his name right now!]). And this isn't even bringing up the British example of Ian Curtis and Joy Division, who completely blew the Doors off the map in every respect (and remember, I don't even really LIKE Joy Division, but Love Will Tear Us Apart is deeper, gloomier AND more human than anything the Doors ever did).
No matter what metric I use, the Doors still come up in the same spot. Their albums are overwrought and virtually unlistenable. Their singles were better, but still no better than mediocre (Break on Through is the only one I'd ever willingly play). Compared to any of rock's great artists, from any era, the Doors don't even register. If they didn't have this (still) fanatical following, I'd probably appreciate them as a half-way decent singles band, decent enough radio fodder. But you've got so many people who think that the Doors were a great band, and it's (often) merely b/c of when they heard them (those important junior high/early high school years), and the fact that they heard them BEFORE they heard any of this other stuff. So, instead of seeing them as something like a second-rate Animals or Zombies, they rank as one of rock's major annoyances for me. And in light of all of this, there's only one thing I can say:
The Doors suck.
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Post by rockysigman on Sept 30, 2005 18:19:40 GMT -5
Damn Ken, I haven't seen a post like that from you since the legendary "Billy Joel is the Rock and Roll Antichrist" post all those years ago. Touche.
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ClubberLang
Struggling Artist
think for yourself, question authority
Posts: 288
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Post by ClubberLang on Sept 30, 2005 18:25:15 GMT -5
I would respond but what's the point? You have a concrete opinion of them(a lot of them being blatant stereotypes and unknowledgable points about the band in general). I won't even bother with a retort because you have no respect for them whatsoever. Even i can respect a band like Radiohead even though i don't like them, or David Bowie even though his songs make me cringe, or even a band like Journey who were the cheesiest fucking band ever(at least they were good at what they did). You have a beef and since you stereotyped The Doors i could stereotype why you don't like them but why bother.
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Post by Kensterberg on Sept 30, 2005 18:26:05 GMT -5
Yeah, you know Rocky, I really try to keep most of my comments about bands as positive as I can. I really like and respect Bowiglou, and so I joke around about the Doors but don't usually post much of substance on 'em. My views are pretty well known, so I don't see much point to just hauling 'em out for the hell of it. But Clubber asked what was wrong with 'em ... and I see some of my best lines being appropriated by a young poster from Michigan (you flat-out stole my "there's a difference between being influential and being good" -- good for you!) ... well, I couldn't just sit back and let you have all the fun. And I'd forgotten just how cathartic it can be to write a really nasty critique of something really vile. I guess I should start buying cds by new bands so I can rip into them.  |
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ClubberLang
Struggling Artist
think for yourself, question authority
Posts: 288
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Post by ClubberLang on Sept 30, 2005 18:26:30 GMT -5
Damn Ken, I haven't seen a post like that from you since the legendary "Billy Joel is the Rock and Roll Antichrist" post all those years ago. Touche. He thinks Billy sucks too? Jeez, we are on the opposite ends of the earth as far as music goes. Please don't tell me that you think Led Zeppelin sucks too |
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Post by Kensterberg on Sept 30, 2005 18:31:54 GMT -5
Clubber -- unfortunately, my dislike for the Doors comes from having to listen to them ... and realizing in my junior year of h.s. that they were nothing special, indeed demonstrably inferior to lots of other bands. No, there isn't much point to responding to my rant, because you're not going to change my opinion of the band. But it's not because I'm stereotyping them, it's because I've actually heard them, and this is my informed opinion on 'em.
What do you think of Joy Division, Clubber? I would think that anyone who got into Morrison's gloomier stuff would be absolutely transfixed by JD. Or maybe Ian Curtis is too real for someone enamored of the surface of Jimbo's antics. I'm just curious, as I'm not a Joy Division fan either, but I'd be curious as to what Doors fans think of the artists that Rocky and I brought up.
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