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Post by Paul on Jun 6, 2007 9:02:22 GMT -5
Ken, I really wish there was a way for you to hear an amazing, clean sounding version of Arthur - I really wish that CD would get the 24 bit or SACD remastering job done to it. It honestly baffles me how one could think the Kinks from the late 70's / early 80's are better and more interesting. I honestly think the exact opposite. By the time the late 70's rolled around the Kinks were making mediocre, almost generic music just to appeal to the masses and finally start selling records - Many of their best albums such as Face To Face, Something Else, Village Green, and Arthur completely tanked. IMHO, the Kinks dumbed down their sound in the later years. The structures of the songs, the lyrics, everything was borderline boring. There are some gems from those years, don't get me wrong, but overall, they severely lack imagination and originality. If you haven't done so yet, check out all music guide's review for Arthur - they nail it, and express it in a way far better than I ever could. Oh, and on the Random 10 thread, Ryo was inquiring about math rock - I told him what little I know about it. Anyway, the reason I bring that up here is b/c I have lots of friends here in DC that play - and many of them play some weird stuff using odd time signatures like 3/4, 5/4, and 6/8. I've turned many of these cats onto the Kinks, and one thing they all mention is how the Kinks initially sound easy/basic, but after further dissection they're actually a pretty complicated band - think of a song like Victoria - they infuse odd structures into their songs, and off beat timings that actually make the Kinks kind of like a 'musicians band'. Alright, so I'm ranting a bit, but to say the Kinks middle period is boring - and were talking Face to Face through Muswell Hillbillies (1966 -1971) is just malarkey. This is the period that I think most would agree are when the Kinks were at their mighty best. Oh, and I wanted to comment on your rather interesting observation too Mr. Holzman. I've always realized the Kinks got covered a lot, but what you wrote really highlighted how far their reach went. They are certainly one of the most influential bands ever, and IMO, based on who has covered them inspired bands from all across the board. Off the top of my head, here's a list of bands who have covered the Kinks: Van Halen, Pretenders, the Jam, Wilco, Minus 5, Golden Smog (Jeff Tweedy must be a big fan), the Knack, Mudhoney, David Bowie, Zodiacs, Cheap Trick, Jackson Browne, Elliot Smith, Def Leppard, Sonic Youth, Yo La Tengo, Frank Black, Stereophonics, Jimmy Buffet, Scorpions, Spoon. There are many more I'm sure, but that just gives you an idea of how far their reach went - they pretty much inspired bands from all genres. Oh, and most of the covered songs come from their early to mid years  I hope this doesn't come off as me attacking - cause I'm not. Basically, I just wish you could hear pristine versions of those klassic albums. Fortunately, I have Muswell Hillbillies on a SACD and the sound is damn good. It's a strange album, but if you like rock mixed with ragtime and country, and odd/quirky English references, you may dig. |
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Post by dolly on Jun 7, 2007 1:50:03 GMT -5
I back you up there, Paul. bite away, Nipper  I'm on a Kinks kick again, incidentally - and it's not even seeing Ray Davies the other week that has resparked this time. It's more my rediscovered passion for British music after listening to waaaaay too much Americana (though not exclusively, or perhaps I'd have topped myself by now). The Kinks influence was big on British bands ion the 90s and IU think you can hear it coming through again in some of the post-punk/garagey bands of the moment. Certainly more Kinks/Who inspired than either the Beatles or The Stones. and that's a good thing. |
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Post by Paul on Jun 7, 2007 8:53:38 GMT -5
So, Dolly, Fuzz, Ken - how y'all doing? Well anyone who reads this for that matter. Seems like it's been awhile since we all chatted around here. Guess the boards are kinda in a lull right now, but I just wanted to stop by my favorite thread and say hi to all the folk that post here, or used to. Phil, if you still lurk around here, hello. Ryo, Bow - y'all post here sometimes, so hi to you too. Fuzz, how's the daughter and fatherhood? Figure out what's going on? Have you become a pro at changing the diapers yet? .... Anyway, hope are y'all are well. Hey Paul! Am well thanks - once again my Internet time is limited as I lead my lambs to the slaughter of death that is the exam hall. You won't stop me posting come summer. I hadn't realised you had replied to the last post I wrote - forgive me my rudeness! Yeah I was really disappointed in the lack of songs from my favourite Kinks albums, but I was kind of expecting it - aside from VGPS - he normally plays something from there - often a medley. Ah well - next time perhaps... Currently trying to debate whether or not to go see Interpol's tour in August. I'm on holida - and last time they were great - but I'm not overly excited by what I've heard in terms of new stuff by them. Been to/going to any gigs of late, Paul? So how are the exams going? Got any questions you can post here? You're teaching Econ right? I'm curious to see if I can answer any of them considering I have a degree in it and all. I bet those kids are shaking in their boots over your exam! If you have the means you should totally check out Interpol - you may end up liking the newer songs when you hear them live, plus I'm sure they'll play some older tunes that you love. I really haven't been to many gigs lately  Not even local DC bands. I'm really hoping to catch the Beastie Boys this tour. I don't think they're too popular here on this Castaway site, but I'm super excited for the new album. FYI, it's an all instrumental. That's right, no singing, no rapping, just the boys grooving on the instruments. I've heard it (it leaked over the weekend), and it's fantastic! The one word the comes to mind when thinking about it is - Cool. That's it, it's a fucking cool album - no more, no less. |
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Post by Kensterberg on Jun 7, 2007 10:48:33 GMT -5
Paul, Dolly, et al ... Well, last night I d/l'ded a bunch of Kinks LPs. I'm now in the possession of a three cd version of Village Green, as well as the entirety of Misfits, Low Budget, Lola, Everybody's in Showbiz, and Muswell Hillbillies. These go into iTunes alongside the stuff that Paul sent me last year, as well as GTPWTW, One For the Road, and State of Confusion, and I think this gives me a pretty darn complete view of the Kinks katalog. I'm gonna work my way through these, and I'll be posting sporadic comments with my thoughts. I know that some of these are already headed towards permanent favorites status (i.e. Lola v. Powerman and the Money-go-round) and others, well, are more problematic. But I've got an open mind and open ears, and over the next few weeks I hope to definitively evaluate their career. Unless I get sidetracked by the new Crowded House, McCartney, old Springsteen and Clash boots, etc.  |
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Post by Paul on Jun 7, 2007 12:39:32 GMT -5
Whoa dude! You're not fucking around are you!? Impressive, most impressive. Looking forward to your thoughts. Take your time w/ Muswell. That album took about 6 months to grow on me, after first listen, I hated it. Now it's one of my favorite Kinks albums.
Showbiz is kinda hit and miss...there are some cool live versions of 'Top of the Pops' and 'Till The End of the Day'.
Village Green is considered their best, but it drags in places for me. Dave's song - Wicked Anabella - is the only real hard rock song. The rest of the album is pretty chill. Ray was quite an old soul at a very young age. The thing that's special about VGPS is how different it was for the times. Nobody but the Kinks had the balls to release an album like that smack dab in the middle of the psychedelic scene, on the heels of the summer of love, during the height of the Vietnam war, and all the turmoil of the 1960's. VGPS was way out of place in it's day.
I think you may dig the Lola album - less the production. It's a nicely layered album with multiple songs having both piano and keyboards, and they even bust out the banjo on a few tracks. Some of my favorite songs on that album are: Rats (listen to the drums, they're fantastic), Contenders, Strangers, This Time Tomorrow, and Got To Be Free (that's probably my fave).
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Post by Kensterberg on Jun 7, 2007 12:47:26 GMT -5
I played both versions of Top of the Pops last night, and liked both. I like the guitar sound that Dave was getting in that period, actually. I'm going to have to approach Muswell very carefully, as Brits playing at Amercana country sounds is something that has never sat well with me (I don't much like it when Elvis Costello tries to get too "authentic" with his country numbers, either), so it's one that I'm predisposed to dislike. Similarly, none of the Village Green samples you sent me shot to the top of my personal faves lists (unlike most of Face to Face, which is IMO the best of their sixties stuff that I've heard). Lola is the album I'm most likely to fall for, but we'll see, young grasshopper. We shall see. |
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Post by dolly on Jun 7, 2007 12:52:04 GMT -5
NP: Lola vs The Powerman & The Moneygoround
Y'know this album has probably been one of the most ignored of The Kinks in my possession. Not even sure why as it contains some real standouts. Love A Long Way From Home - prob as Ray always plays it live since he's thawed towards Dave of late.
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Post by dolly on Jun 7, 2007 12:59:56 GMT -5
So how are the exams going? Got any questions you can post here? You're teaching Econ right? I'm curious to see if I can answer any of them considering I have a degree in it and all. I bet those kids are shaking in their boots over your exam! If you have the means you should totally check out Interpol - you may end up liking the newer songs when you hear them live, plus I'm sure they'll play some older tunes that you love. I really haven't been to many gigs lately Not even local DC bands. I'm really hoping to catch the Beastie Boys this tour. I don't think they're too popular here on this Castaway site, but I'm super excited for the new album. FYI, it's an all instrumental. That's right, no singing, no rapping, just the boys grooving on the instruments. I've heard it (it leaked over the weekend), and it's fantastic! The one word the comes to mind when thinking about it is - Cool. That's it, it's a fucking cool album - no more, no less. I'll post some Qs for you and we'll see if you can. I expect full discussion of equilibrium and curve shifts to illustrate your answers dontcha know. It's my last lesson with the Year 13s tomorrow - they got me a card and everything, so I've bought them onion bargies and Mars Bars. Doing my bit for teenage obesity and the like. HOpefuly they'll do well in their exams in spite of my novice-teaching Might check out Interpol - haven't decided yet. They were great when I saw them last, but we'll see. If something better comes up we may not bother. Been there done that, didn't buy the t-shirt... On the nose about the VGPS comments btw. That's why it bombed pretty much - but then the Kinks being out of step was always the way of it pretty much. Wasn't it the same year we won the World Cup that Kinks sang 'Where Have all the Good Times Gone?' I have that 3 disc set Holz - though one disc is just the original album without the remastering - possibly still in mono I think. |
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Post by Kensterberg on Jun 7, 2007 21:23:13 GMT -5
OK, I've listened to Lola once, and am now wrapping up Low Budget ... I don't know if you guys are gonna love me or hate me here ... I really do think that seventies Kinks -- and accesible rock-oriented Kinks at that -- are "better" or at least a hell of a lot more enjoyable than the band's sixties era releases. The band's playing is tighter, the sound is immeasureably better, and Davies songs are actually considerably more expressive, personal, and provide a better balance between ironic detachment, cynicism, and sentiment than he struck in the previous decade. Which really should be no surprise, considering that when we discuss the band's seventies and early eighties output, we are really talking about their "mature" period, and Davies' songwriting (and singing, which has also improved considerably here, and which by the end of this era contained almost none of the camp tendancies which marred many of his sixties performances) has certainly grown in skill, perceptiveness, and overall power. On first blush, these records definitely reinforce two main points for me, which will not surprise anyone here, but which I'm sure I'll elaborate further as I listen to this katalog in depth this summer. The first point is that the Kinks are a band I'm very fond of, and are indisputably one of rock's great groups. That said, I'm not entirely sure they've ever made a single album which ranks up there with the very best of the genre, a la London Calling, Abbey Road, Let It Bleed, or Who's Next. The comparison with the Who is an apt one, as I think there are a great many points to compare and contrast between these two bands. Lots of very good records, at least some of which surely deserve five stars in my ratings scheme, but none that really merit serious consideration as "best in rock." Second, I really do think that "conventional wisdom" regarding the band's output severely under-estimates the charms and strengths of the band's output in the seventies and eighties, and severly over-states the merits of the band's output in the late sixties and early part of the seventies (aside from Lola, which was a brilliant bridge between sixties' swingin' London culture and the glam era of Bowie and Bolan). As part of this, I think that the myth that the band was always severely out of step with surrounding pop culture is false, particularly as it regards the idea that Village Green and Muswell Hillbillies were in some way completely disconnected from what other leading acts were doing. In 1968, rock had been around long enough to have undergone not just an artistic expansionist phase typified by projects such as Pet Sounds and Sgt. Pepper, but also to have fostered its own "back to basics" movement. In 1968, for a number of reasons, this movement hit a lot of high-profile acts. Ever the chameleon, Bob Dylan started it the year prior, when he released John Wesley Harding, a record of muted performances shaded in country colours by Nashville session performers. Dylan delved even deeper into country music with 1968's Nashville Skyline, and his old back-up group, the Hawks, released their own stunning debut, Music From Big Pink, which sounded like it had been recorded in some sort of time-warp to 1898 or in a parallel universe from the psychedelic tableau's of the previous two years. After the relative "debacle" of the Magical Mystery Tour project, the Beatles were oddly silent for much of 1968, before releasing "Lady Madonna" b/w "The Inner Light" as a summer single. The A-side signalled that the Fab Four were through with psychedelia, as McCartney cribbed his vocal style and piano boogie from Fats Domino. The Rolling Stones followed this up with the August (I believe) release of their own "back to basics" number, a little ditty called "Jumping Jack Flash." In the studio, both bands pursued this movement into country-flavoured sounds, which would appear on that fall's The Beatles (a/k/a The White Album) and in the Stones' own Let It Bleed and Beggar's Banquet. So pursuing a nostalgic, country-music flavored theme for an album in 1968 really wasn't such a break from the mainstream as it might appear today. It is easy to lose track of all the currents which pulsed through the rock and roll scene from 1963-1970, and the speed at which trends arose and faded from view was nothing short of breakneck. I'm not sure in which month in '68 Village Green was released, but all the necessary seeds for its viewpoint and instrumentation had been planted the previous year, in the Kinks' own work, and also in Dylan's John Wesley Harding, and in McCartney's summoning of the music-hall tradition with "When I'm 64" and "Your Mother Should Know." Davies great contribution to rock and roll themes was in his perspective that it was okay to use popular music to look back at a time when Britain ruled the world, and to use rock and roll in particular as a medium to work out the fact that this moment had passed, and that Imperial Brittania was no more. Unfortunately, like many grand themes, the works that most explicitly spell this out (Arthur, VGPS) sag under such a huge weight. When Davies later (Lola, Misfits, Low Budget, etc.) was able to more subtly incorporate this world-weary perspective into his work on a more personal level, he was once again more successful, both artistically and commercially. I have to say "once again" b/c it is undeniable that a great many of the early (pre-VGPS /Arthur) Kinks singles evoked precisely the mood and emotions which Davies went to such lengths to spell out. The wail of "Where Have All the Good Times Gone," the maniacal celebration of "Dead End Street" and the touching tale of Terry and Judy at Waterloo Station vividly depict the decline of the British Empire in human terms. I'm still working on the Kinks katalog, and my feelings towards the band's output, but this is the general perspective that I've got right now. I will keep you posted as to changes in this view, or if it becomes more entrenched. Right now, I'm better than half through Misfits, and still really enjoying the sounds of the Kinks as a rock band, rather than as some sort of country/music-hall amalgamation. More to come tomorrow ... |
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Post by Kensterberg on Jun 7, 2007 21:42:54 GMT -5
BTW, "Father Christmas" just might be the best thing the Kinks have ever recorded. How many rockers can say that their definitive track is a holiday song?
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Post by Paul on Jun 8, 2007 10:39:02 GMT -5
Wow man, that was a freaking good write up!
I hear you on the country thing regarding VGPS - I guess I was thinking more like the Kinks released a whole album like that, where as the Stones and Beatles just had a few songs here and there. Over in the States, yeah other bands were on the country tip - Bobby D, CCR, Grateful Dead - all could be considered alt country originals. Still though, I don't know if I'd ever heard such a nostalgic singer/songwriter as Ray. He just seemed more disconnected than any of his other British peers. I personally think Ray is the best lyricist to ever come from the UK - and there is a damn fine list in that category.
I also really liked your description of Lola as a bridge! Songs like "This Time Tomorrow" really did bridge sounds from the 70's w/ the sounds of the 60's. If you listen to the outtakes on 'Arthur' - the two Dave songs "This Man He Weeps Tonight" and "Mindless Child Of Motherhood - are a bridge, and could've easily fit on the Lola album. It's because of the Lola album the Kinks were signed to RCA along w/ Lou Reed and David Bowie. RCA thought they were gonna have the glam holy trinity. Instead, the Kinks released Muswell Hillbillies, and in a way it makes the album all the more classic.
I've played Misfits for some friends, and many share your thoughts. Most critics say it was their best album since Muswell, and maybe the last truly great Kinks album. Personally I'm not a huge fan - I'd rather listen to 1973's 'Preservation Act 1 (2 kinda sucks). Overall the Kinks were tighter on Misfits/Sleepwalker/Low Budget (Sleepwalker is my personal fave of those three) however, that is what I think makes them lose some of their appeal to me. I don't like extremely clean, slick sounds, and to my ears that's exactly how the Kinks sounds on those later albums. Give me the loose, raw, raggity sound any day. I think this is most notable with the drumming. I've always kinda thought Mick Avorey was kinda like a cross between Charlie Watts and Keith Moon - smooth, and jazzy sometimes like Charlie, and wild and unpredictable like Keith. (though not as smooth as Charlie, or as crazy as Keith). Anyway, on those late albums, he seems to be too predictable, too in the pocket, and well, too tight behind the kit. I likes his looser, more free style ways from the earlier years.
I'm really just glad you're digging the Kinks in general though. If you like the later years, that's cool - we have different taste and that's why music/art is great. It's all how we as individuals interpret it.
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Post by Kensterberg on Jun 15, 2007 21:01:28 GMT -5
OK, some more Kinks komments here ... I listened to Everybody's in Showbiz last night, and tonight I've listened to VGPS in both stereo and mono. EIS is alright -- the live set is a lot fun, if not particularly memorable or necessary -- and "Celluloid Heroes" (which I was already familiar with) is one of the great ballads of the early seventies. This definitely isn't going to be labeled a masterpiece, but it's a credible release, and considering the dreck that some of their contemporaries were shovelling out at this point, that's saying something.
The Village Green is a whole 'nother story. The title track, "Picture Book," "Do You Remember Walter" and a few other cuts rank among the catchiest, most melodic and lyrically moving things Davies has ever done (which is really saying something). However, when Ray feels like he has to spell out his concept and themes (the repeated motif of "people take pictures of one another to prove they were here" and the entire reprise of the village green setting on side two) the record sags under the weight of his pretensions. Village Green is an outstanding album, but once again I don't feel like it merits a spot on that short list of "greatest albums ever," nor is it as out of place for its time as it might appear at first glance. The whole thing reminds me of what you'd get if you took all of Macca's music-hall pieces from '67-'68 and tried to tie them together thematically (BTW, that hypothetical Macca record would still be better than VGPS). Also, the record suffers from the fact that perhaps the best song that the band recorded in this era, and certainly the best song on any of the three discs in this set, the stunning "Days," wasn't included on the record.
In his effort to make a cohesive thematic record, Davies shorted it of some of the best material the band had at the time. If he'd been willing to forego a strict "rock opera" approach (which, BTW, he still didn't manage here, and Townshend beat him to the fully realized punch with Tommy the next year) in favor of tracks that evoked a similar mood and atmosphere a la the character sketches of Face to Face, the record would have been (IMHO at least) much stronger. Of course, I've heard this charge thrown at other Kinks albums (particularly Preservation, I believe: I think AMG said something to the effect of why the hell didn't Davies include some single that was better than anything on either album or some such), and I'm sure that to the British market of the time the fact that he didn't duplicate a single which fans already owned on 45 in favor of releasing an additional track on the LP was seen as a plus.
So in sum ... a very good record, easily four stars, but should it get five? I dunno, a lot of the material is first rate, and melodically I don't know if Davies has ever come up with a stronger overall set of songs. But ... there are still a lot of flaws, including the sound, as almost always with the Kinks in this era. The version I've been listening to is nice and clear, but the production is still muddy, which makes Avorey's drumkit sound like it's behind a wall of cardboard, and Ray's guitars are too thin, particularly on the stereo mix. Interestingly enough, I found the stereo mix to sound a bit more delicate overall, where the mono version sounds much more solid and firm. Perhaps these tracks are so resolutely antiquarian that this LP is best heard in mono! (BTW, the stereo mix of "Days" is nothing short of perfection -- it's tracks like this that make me both love the Kinks and want to curse them for not taking the time/making the effort to get all their material to sound like this!). In any event, right now I'm looking more at giving VGPS a solid four stars. I need to go back and listen to Face to Face again, as that was my favorite record overall of the stuff you (Paul) had sent last year.
Tentative Ratings:
Everybody's In Showbiz (Everybody's a Star) 3 stars.
The Kinks Are the Village Green Preservation Society 4 stars.
More Kinks comments to follow ... I'm teaching a paralegal course this weekend, and doubt if I'll have time to listen to much, or to chime in with detailed comments until some time next week.
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Post by Paul on Jun 18, 2007 8:57:10 GMT -5
4 Stars is a fair review of VGPS - of all the Kinks records I've heard, it ranks in about 5 for me. Personally, I like Lola, Face, Muswell, and Arthur better. I'm actually torn between Something Else and VGPS for my five spot. To me, that says all I need to know about the Kinks. One of the truly great albums in all of rock, certainly one of the most overlooked, and it ranks in at 5 for me. VGPS is great, and they got 4 albums, IMO, that are better.
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Post by Paul on Jun 18, 2007 8:59:43 GMT -5
I gotta run, I'll write up more in a bit. Oh, good call on Showbiz - pretty much my thoughts exactly.
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Post by Paul on Jun 18, 2007 10:42:07 GMT -5
I listened to Everybody's in Showbiz last night, and tonight I've listened to VGPS in both stereo and mono. EIS is alright -- the live set is a lot fun, if not particularly memorable or necessary -- and "Celluloid Heroes" (which I was already familiar with) is one of the great ballads of the early seventies. This definitely isn't going to be labeled a masterpiece, but it's a credible release, and considering the dreck that some of their contemporaries were shovelling out at this point, that's saying something.
That live set is pretty fun - hearing some of the Muswell tracks live is cool. Ray sounds pretty drunk during the set, and a bit sloppy, but it's still a fun set. Apparently Andy Warhol and his crew were all there at the show and they partied quite hard w/ the Kinks before and after. One of my favorite cuts from the live set is a number hated here by Dolly and Bow - "She's Bought A Hat Like Princess Marina". The tune is from Arthur, and sure it's a bit silly, but it's the lyrics that are quite nice, and rather sad. The studio version, the boys rock out w/ the kazoo, but on the live version, the kazoo is replaced by a brass section, which IMO sounds better. The other Arthur song on Showbiz - Brainwashed - is nowhere near the quality that's on Arthur. (Brainwashed is one of my favorite rock songs ever made).
If he'd been willing to forego a strict "rock opera" approach (which, BTW, he still didn't manage here, and Townshend beat him to the fully realized punch with Tommy the next year)
Arthur was recorded before Tommy, but released after. Kinks beat the Who to the punch. Also, this is something Ray would clutch onto for dear live for the next 8 albums!! And trust me, once we get to the mid 70's Kinks albums, some of it is shockingly bad. Those late 70's/early 80's albums were perfect for the time of the Kinks komeback. They were stripped down, more focused, and rocked a lot harder.
owever, when Ray feels like he has to spell out his concept and themes (the repeated motif of "people take pictures of one another to prove they were here" and the entire reprise of the village green setting on side two)
I see, err hear your point as far as the repeated pictures theme, but 'Village Green' is an amazing song, and very necessary for the album. The story in its great, and highlights WHY the VGPS, and more particular Ray Davies, were indeed out of step with the times and peers. Perhaps the music wasn't so out of time as Ray Davies himself was. At 25, he was quite an old soul. I mean he was singing about girls holding onto their virginity in 1968!!! No one did that.
Also, the record suffers from the fact that perhaps the best song that the band recorded in this era, and certainly the best song on any of the three discs in this set, the stunning "Days," wasn't included on the record.
No argument here, 'Days' is pure brilliance. Pearl Jam kinda kopies the Kinks sometimes by not including great songs on albums - see Lost Dogs. But yeah, Days and Picture Book are perfect songs. Really, they're two absolutely flawless songs.
What did you think of the bonus disc? "Berkeley Mews" is one of my favorites, and would've been a nice addition to VGPS.
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Not even local DC bands. I'm really hoping to catch the Beastie Boys this tour. I don't think they're too popular here on this Castaway site, but I'm super excited for the new album. FYI, it's an all instrumental. That's right, no singing, no rapping, just the boys grooving on the instruments. I've heard it (it leaked over the weekend), and it's fantastic! The one word the comes to mind when thinking about it is - Cool. That's it, it's a fucking cool album - no more, no less.
