Religion, Theology, and all that good stuff

[JACkory]

"the fantasy"...
Why do you even bother talking seriously about something you consider a "fantasy"?
Seriously, if it's just a fantasy then is it even worth your time and trouble discussing? Don't you have something better to do than debate over what you consider a "fantasy" which you don't even believe in?

I don't claim to know what the Catholic Church teaches in regards to salvation in the future as opposed to the present...I am currently reading Anthony Wilhelm's Christ Among Us: A Modern Presentation of the Catholic Faith, so hopefully I will get some insight on the topic by the time I''ve finished reading it...but the Protestant understanding of salvation that I hold is a three-fold process that includes Justification, Sanctification and Glorification.
I do not accept the works-based salvation that is taught by the Catholic Church, at least insomuch as I admit that my understanding of it is limited.

[JACkory]

Hello, guests.
Hope you're enjoying the conversation.

[kmc]

Salvation in the Catholic Church is a result of works and the grace of God, i.e., through good works you receive the grace of God, which saves you.

I didn't know it was a prerequisite that I be a believer to discuss anything here. Guess I'll take off then.

[Kensterberg]

Belief is not a prerequisite to discuss religion, or any spiritual matters. If it was, there would be no evangelical movement, since that is by definition discussing the issue with non-believers.

So don't run off, you're providing a valuable service in asking folks why they think what they think. As Socrates noted, the unexamined life is not worth living.

[Nepenthe]

Wanna know what really pisses me off to no end?

I am sure everyone has gone through this. You are approached by one of the "kooks" sometimes a Baptist, some times a Jehovah Witness, sometimes a Pentecostal. I have hated this all of my life because these people have really "thick skulls". If you aren't a regular church goer they will ramble and ramble. You can tell them that you are a Christian and love the Lord God with all your heart and you believe that Jesus was the son of God... You know what? They will still just keep rambling sometimes completely ignoring what you just told them.

I guess it must be their way or no way at all.

It pisses me off so badly sometimes I just want to tell them to go F*ck themselves and slam the door in their face, or just keep walking if you are out somewhere when they do it.

I know that sounds bad but it is pretty ridiculous. But, I think this is where the belief that "your works" save you comes in......shame indeed.

I also get furious when churches do altar calls over and over and over and expect the same folk to rush up every single Sunday to "get saved". He SAVES ONLY ONCE!!! It is upon repentance that you are forgiven. You know I truly detest this type of guilt trip they like to throw out to people. "you're gonna fry like a piece of bacon"...yada yada.

Speaking of works, what are your works? Is it going out knocking on doors trying to ramble on and on about conversion to "their" beliefs and "their" church? Is it going out and feeding the poor at the soup kitchen, only to win browny points with God?

I guess to me, it is treating everyone with respect no matter what they believe. Although I am known for letting my temper fly when someone "mocks" my own beliefs. But whatever you do in life, your whole heart must be in it. Its more than just "going through the motions".

[Nepenthe]

And Jac, that last post is NOT at all directed to you. Brother. Check your pm.

Actually it was quite the opposite, to show an example of a truly messed up form of evangelizing.

[JACkory]

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that your input was not valued.
But come on, now.
Is it really necessary that you use words like "fantasy" to describe the cherished beliefs of those with whom you are discussing these things?
Is your sense of common courtesy so rank that you don't see any reason to refrain from using such terms when you HAVE to know that they will be taken badly by those who do not share your viewpoints?

Once again, I apologize for how I failed to communicate what I felt in regards to your comment.
Let me try again:

I am deeply offended that you would choose to describe the concept of "Salvation" as a "fantasy". This "fantasy", as you call it, is something that means more to me than you will ever know, so hopefully I will be excused for taking offense at your pithy dismissal of it.
I have kept my own personal opinions of the value of MY UNDERSTANDING OF HUMANISM to myself, and I had expected a similar consideration on your behalf.
Obviously there are some differences between YOUR understanding of what the term Humanism implies and what I have come to understand about it. I have already expressed a desire to avoid discussing SEMANTICS.
But many of the ideals and goals that you are positing as "humanistic" are no different than the ideals and goals I have championed as a Christian.

[Nepenthe]

I have to say that Jac is right, I took the "fantasy" comment a bit as offensive as well. But hey, sometimes you have to throw stuff like that over your shoulder.

[JACkory]

nymphofantasia said:

And Jac, that last post is NOT at all directed to you. Brother. Check your pm.

Actually it was quite the opposite, to show an example of a truly messed up form of evangelizing.

Oh, I knew it wasn't directed at me because I agree wholeheartedly with just about everything you said in that post.
I just hope others don't think I'm the kind of Christian that disrespects the beliefs of others.
It's only when people just totally dismiss religion and try to slag it off as useless (then come around to admitting that they never really cared about it in the first place) that I feel obliged to speak out in a defensive tone.

Now I will go check that PM.

[JACkory]

nymphofantasia said:

I have to say that Jac is right, I took the "fantasy" comment a bit as offensive as well. But hey, sometimes you have to throw stuff like that over your shoulder.

You are right, and I will definately make a conscious decision to do that in the future...

[Nepenthe]

Jac, I know exactly what you are saying. Sometimes on these here boards it is truly hard to tell when people are REALLY interested in what you believe in or if they are just having a comic "circle jerk" at your expense.

And if one is truly interested in discussing spirituality with someone that is a Christian, they shouldn't use words like "fantasy" Or comments like Phil's "cognitive brain function gone wrong". I see phil ran off as usual.

And btw, when I said my father was an honorable man, I meant it. Though he is not sure whether there is a God or not, he would surely never tell a believer that they have something wrong with their brain or that they believe in a "fantasy".

[JACkory]

Of course there are unbelievers who do good deeds and excel in charitable works.
And my hat is off to them. We need more of the same in this hard world, regardless of motivations or beliefs.

[poseidon]

nymphofantasia said:

Wanna know what really pisses me off to no end?

I am sure everyone has gone through this. You are approached by one of the "kooks" sometimes a Baptist, some times a Jehovah Witness, sometimes a Pentecostal. I have hated this all of my life because these people have really "thick skulls". If you aren't a regular church goer they will ramble and ramble. You can tell them that you are a Christian and love the Lord God with all your heart and you believe that Jesus was the son of God... You know what? They will still just keep rambling sometimes completely ignoring what you just told them.

I guess it must be their way or no way at all.

It pisses me off so badly sometimes I just want to tell them to go F*ck themselves and slam the door in their face, or just keep walking if you are out somewhere when they do it.

I know that sounds bad but it is pretty ridiculous. But, I think this is where the belief that "your works" save you comes in......shame indeed.

I also get furious when churches do altar calls over and over and over and expect the same folk to rush up every single Sunday to "get saved". He SAVES ONLY ONCE!!! It is upon repentance that you are forgiven. You know I truly detest this type of guilt trip they like to throw out to people. "you're gonna fry like a piece of bacon"...yada yada.

Speaking of works, what are your works? Is it going out knocking on doors trying to ramble on and on about conversion to "their" beliefs and "their" church? Is it going out and feeding the poor at the soup kitchen, only to win browny points with God?

I guess to me, it is treating everyone with respect no matter what they believe. Although I am known for letting my temper fly when someone "mocks" my own beliefs. But whatever you do in life, your whole heart must be in it. Its more than just "going through the motions".

Mormons are the worst on their bikes in their nice white shirts and ties...I hiss at 'em all before slamming the door...

[Nepenthe]

Mercury, LMAO! All I can think about is Trey Parker in Orgazmo, he plays a mormon named Joe Young. He is out knocking on doors and this woman thats like 80 years old answers the door...


Joe Young: We're from The Church of Jesus Christ.
Old Lady: Oh, the Mormons?
Joe Young: That's right. I'm elder Young and this is elder White.
Old Lady: Well, you two boys can just fuck right off.
Joe Young: Ma'am?
Old Lady: You heard me. Take that book of Mormons and shove it so far up your righteous asses that you choke, you soul soliciting pigfuckers.

[Nepenthe]

That movie is hilarious. I know I know...something a good Christian should not be watchin right? LOL