Religion, Theology, and all that good stuff

[JACkory]

It is possible to be so open minded that your brains fall out.

[phil]

I caught mine just before it hit the floor ... ...

Don't need it much anymore 'cause
I always eat at the same Italian restaurant
and bowl the same alley every tuesday night ...

[phil]

Oh! And I forgot to mention that
I am also monotonously monogamous
and I don't go out as much as I used to ...

[Matheus]

chrisfan said:

There was a comment made on the movie board's religion discussion that I just thought I'd share a thought on here. I think it was Kool who commented on the perceived challenge to Melon to open his mind. I am NOT directing this comment specific to Kool, or even really in response tothat comment. Rather, the comment inspired this thought.

I hear people fro mtime to time talk about those firm in their convictions (usually with regards to religion or politics) as close-minded. Why? When a person goes bowling once a week, and always ends up at the same alley, that's considered habit rather than close-minded. When a person enjoys Itallian food and always goes to the same favorite Itallian restaurant, that's considered comfortable and not close-minded. When a man or woman finds a mate they truly love and commit to that person, it's applauded as monogomy, and not close minded.

Some people find the answers to what works for them, or what makes sense for them sooner than others. I don't think that should be dismissed or diminshed. Some people have a shorter path of exploration in finding what makes the most sense.

I think the term "close-minded" should be used (especially in religion) when a person says that another person's beliefs or faith aren't as valid as theirs. Faith is believing, but it isn't backed by fact. If someone told me that the sky appears blue then I wouldn't call them close-minded, but if they told me Islam is retarded then I'd call them close-minded. It goes for all religions and straight down to atheism. If you don't have fact on your side and you're stating something as absolute then I see it close-minded.

It is not close-minded when someone of a certain faith doesn't feel the need to know what Buddhism is. They could probably spend their time better learning more about their own faith.

[Matheus]

Chrisfan,

You stated this over on the Movie thing:
"While my fingers are moving so quickly, I want to touch for a bit on the "what's the big deal" aspect of the questions you raise I think about Last Temptation -- in the eyes of Christian, Jesus was not simply a really good guy. He was God, in human form, walking on this earth. His being human is key. But what makes Him Jesus, and not just some really good guy, is that in human form He behaved like God ... not like a human. He experienced what we do, felt like we do, and faced challenges that we face. But He showed us how God does those things, while we do them as humans do them."

I wrote a whole entire post that I just deleted before I wrote this one because it came off like I was attacking Christianity rather than posing the questions that I have. You know me, I have a million and fifty of them. I’ve talked to many Christians, have picked up the bible myself, and yet the answers are not to be found.

I read the Jesus gospels, and I get what Jesus stands for to a point, but I still don’t understand the point. Jesus is God in human form, and it was obviously predestined that way since he was immaculately conceived by Mary.

This is what I don’t get…
“He experienced what we do, felt like we do, and faced challenges that we face. But He showed us how God does those things, while we do them as humans do them.” What challenges did he face if he were already predestined to be God in human form? God is perfect, right? How is that challenging? Furthermore, where are the parts where he actually faced those challenges? Why are they left out?

I still feel like I’m attacking, but I don’t mean to. I just really don’t get it. I guess maybe I don’t really understand faith.

[chrisfan]

Two posts, two answers --

To some extent, I'd agree with you on the close minded thing when dismissing other religions. But I do so with the caveat of really listening to the dismissal language. I know I've used this example here before, but it fits. If a man says "My wife is the greatest woman in the world" I do not believe that he is insulting me, since I"m a woman in this world that is not his wife. Rather, I think he's identifying what is best for him . Often times, when a person declares his or her religion to be the way, or the truth, or what have you, I consider that language to be the same. It's not necessarily a dismissal of others. What is "best" differs for different people.


On the question of challengs Christ faced -- I would say the gospels are full of them, but His trial and cricificion would be the biggest example. It is one of many stories where Christ is challenged to "prove" he's the son of God. There are points in the story of His trial where Christ could have fallen into the temptation coming from those who tried him in order to save his own hide. But he recognized that this was the fate that God intended for him, and he followed. Even on the cross, near death, he prayed for forgiveness for those who had put him there.

[JACkory]

has anyone ever noticed that keebler's chips deluxe original cookies are delicious?

god i'm so tired of everybody taking everybody else so seriously

[Matheus]

chrisfan said:

Two posts, two answers --

To some extent, I'd agree with you on the close minded thing when dismissing other religions. But I do so with the caveat of really listening to the dismissal language. I know I've used this example here before, but it fits. If a man says "My wife is the greatest woman in the world" I do not believe that he is insulting me, since I"m a woman in this world that is not his wife. Rather, I think he's identifying what is best for him . Often times, when a person declares his or her religion to be the way, or the truth, or what have you, I consider that language to be the same. It's not necessarily a dismissal of others. What is "best" differs for different people.


On the question of challengs Christ faced -- I would say the gospels are full of them, but His trial and cricificion would be the biggest example. It is one of many stories where Christ is challenged to "prove" he's the son of God. There are points in the story of His trial where Christ could have fallen into the temptation coming from those who tried him in order to save his own hide. But he recognized that this was the fate that God intended for him, and he followed. Even on the cross, near death, he prayed for forgiveness for those who had put him there.

Right, but wasn't he perfect to begin with??? How would God be truly tempted if God is already perfect???

Maybe I'm not meant to understand, because I don't.

[chrisfan]

We're all perfect to begin with. Christ is the only one who stuck to that status.

I don't think that the presence of temptation reflects anything about a person's character -- its the way the person responds to it that matters. Jesus could not control those around him, so he was bound to face temptation, and did. The key is that while we as humans sometimes give into that temptation, Christ did not. When he was faced with people challening him where there was an opportunity for short term gain to get out of it, he did not give in to the challenge. We as humans sometimes do.

It would be quite human to be told "okay,do X or we'll kill you" with X being sin, for a person do do X in order to stay alive. When faced with that delimma, Christ chose to remain without sin instead.

[JACkory]

chrisfan said:

We're all perfect to begin with. Christ is the only one who stuck to that status.

not meaning to be confrontational and certainly not desiring to enter into a long, boring debate...

but that's bullshit.

if you really do believe that I suggest you read your bible again. it will help if you start with Genesis, paying particular attention to the part where mankind's innocence and perfection are forfeited by disobedience, and moving straight ahead to the part which suggests that Jesus had to give his life for ALL mankind...cute little babies and perverted degenerate goat fuckers alike.

if ever there were one perfect soul on the planet, past present or futuere, then Jesus Christ wasted his time hanging on that cross.

...if babies were perfect they'd be able to change their own shitty diapers

[luke]

I hope you're not insinuating that all goat fuckers are perverted and degenerate.

[chrisfan]

Jac, you've completely misinterpreted what I said. Maybe instead of my needing to re-read the bible, you should re-read the post.

[JACkory]

luke said:

I hope you're not insinuating that all goat fuckers are perverted and degenerate.

not at all...there are many perverts and degenerates who prefer sheep. And some, heaven forbid, don't like animals at all.

Likewise, many goat fuckers are fine, upstanding citizens. The mayor of our town backu in 2001 was an acknowledged goat fucker, but he was also an agent of positive change in our community

[JACkory]

chrisfan said:

Jac, you've completely misinterpreted what I said. Maybe instead of my needing to re-read the bible, you should re-read the post.

i dun told you ...I don't have time to waste reading these hoity toity religious discussions. I find more pleasure in misinterpration.

but this one time I decided to break that rule and I read the rest of your post. I still don't see where you've qualified the initial statement that "we're all perfect to begin with." i don't know anyone could get something else out of that than I did.

come on, now. a little more time spent with your nose in the good book will do you good

[luke]

jackory said:

luke said:

I hope you're not insinuating that all goat fuckers are perverted and degenerate.

not at all...there are many perverts and degenerates who prefer sheep. And some, heaven forbid, don't like animals at all.

Likewise, many goat fuckers are fine, upstanding citizens. The mayor of our town backu in 2001 was an acknowledged goat fucker, but he was also an agent of positive change in our community

Thanks for clearing that up. I have no problem with goat fuckers, as long as the goat is of the opposite sex. Your mayor sounds like a fine man.

I myself have never had sex with a goat, but I can't say the same for goat cheese. And if sex with a goat is anything like sex with goat cheese, then perhaps I'm game.