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Post by phil on Dec 18, 2007 15:17:00 GMT -5
A few bad apples ...? Posted: 7/27/07 Church corruption, financial scandals live on long past BakkersBy Matt Kennedy Associated Baptist Press DALLAS (ABP)—For some, Tammy Faye Messner’s death July 20 stirred fond memories of a joyful Christian TV personality, and for others, painful memories of the sex-and-money scandal that destroyed her former husband’s popular Christian television network. Her death also reminds Christians that financial scandals are still very much alive in the church. In 1989, Jim Bakker was convicted of 24 counts of fraud and conspiracy and sentenced to 45 years in prison (he served five). Messner—known as Tammy Faye Bakker before her remarriage—was not included in the indictment, which accused Jim Bakker of conspiring to defraud partners of his PTL cable TV network out of $158 million. The story of how Bakker stole from those he led in Christ’s name captivated the nation’s attention and epitomized a decade of televangelist scandals. Eventually they all faded from the headlines. But, while televangelists are no longer the focus, stories about clergy theft in general have not disappeared. In fact, 20 percent of American congregations lose money to people entrusted with church finances, according to a 2005 Newsday article.• Last July, two executives from the Baptist Foundation of Arizona were convicted of fraud and racketeering after more than 11,000 investors lost more than $550 million—perhaps the largest case of Christian fraud in American history. William Crotts and Thomas Grabinski were accused of publishing favorable financial statements to retain investments while they shifted bad assets to “off-the-books” companies to hide the foundation’s extensive losses from auditors. • In Kentucky, Larry Davis pleaded guilty to stealing $730,000 from his now-former congregation, First Baptist Church of Cold Spring. The Cincinnati Enquirer reported that as part of the plea agreement, prosecutors dropped three counts of income-tax evasion and two counts of transferring stolen church money across state lines. There's more ... www.baptiststandard.com/postnuke/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=6640I'm a firm believer in the "You use it, you pay for it" policy. I can't imagine being part of/going to a church and not contributing financialy to the upkeeping, fonctioning costs of a congregation ... In Québec, many churches are empty, were sold or demolished or converted to other uses simply because people stopped going there and there are not enough priests left to staff those that are left ! Not to mention that it must cost a bundle to heat an empty building during our cold winter months and back in the days, catholics tried to build the biggest building they could ... |
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Post by chrisfan on Dec 18, 2007 15:52:18 GMT -5
When you consider the number of people who are either ministers or church leaders in this country, in comparison to those active in a church, I'd call a very general estimate of 20% still a small number. It may not seem that way on the surface, but yes, I'd call a few bad apples.
I also agree with you on the responsibility of contributing financially if you're a part of the congregation. But the reasons surrounding my raising the question were not a question of giving -- they were a question of pledging to give.
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JACkory
Struggling Artist
Posts: 167
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Post by JACkory on Dec 27, 2007 11:54:09 GMT -5
I have been given the go-ahead to believe in all that is real and all that is unreal. I also believe that the infinitely small divide between the two is our final destination.
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Post by phil on Dec 27, 2007 11:56:30 GMT -5
Who told you that ?
A Burning Bush ... ??
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Post by phil on Dec 29, 2007 17:00:40 GMT -5
Now that has got to be a joke ... Please someone tell me that the Daily Mail is kinda like the Onion or Mad Magazine ... Pope's exorcist squads will wage war on SatanBy NICK PISA -  Satanism on the rise: Pope Benedict has unveiled plans to set up specialist exorcism squadsThe Pope has ordered his bishops to set up exorcism squads to tackle the rise of Satanism. Vatican chiefs are concerned at what they see as an increased interest in the occult. They have introduced courses for priests to combat what they call the most extreme form of "Godlessness." Each bishop is to be told to have in his diocese a number of priests trained to fight demonic possession. The initiative was revealed by 82-year-old Father Gabriele Amorth, the Vatican "exorcistinchief," to the online Catholic news service Petrus. "Thanks be to God, we have a Pope who has decided to fight the Devil head-on," he said.
"Too many bishops are not taking this seriously and are not delegating their priests in the fight against the Devil. You have to hunt high and low for a properly trained exorcist. "Thankfully, Benedict XVI believes in the existence and danger of evil - going back to the time he was in charge of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith." The CDF is the oldest Vatican department and was headed by Benedict from 1982, when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, until he became Pope in 2005. Father Amorth said that during his time at the department Benedict had not lost the chance to warn humanity of the risk from the Devil. He said the Pope wants to restore a prayer seen as protection against evil that was traditionally recited at the end of Catholic Masses. The prayer, to St Michael the Archangel, was dropped in the 1960s by Pope John XXIII.  The 1973 film The Exorcist deals with the demonic possession of a young girl: Now the Pope wants specialist exorcism squads in every parish "The prayer is useful not only for priests but also for lay people in helping to fight demons," he said. Father Paolo Scarafoni, who lectures on the Vatican's exorcism course, said interest in Satanism and the occult has grown as people lost faith with the church. He added: "People suffer and think that turning to the Devil can help solve their problems. We are being bombarded by requests for exorcisms." The Vatican is particularly concerned that young people are being exposed to the influence of Satanic sects through rock music and the Internet. In theory, under the Catholic Church's Canon Law 1172, all priests can perform exorcisms. But in reality only a select few are assigned the task. Under the law, practitioners must have "piety, knowledge, prudence, and integrity of life." The rite of exorcism involves a series of gestures and prayers to invoke the power of God and stop the "demon" influencing its victim. www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=504969&in_page_id=1811&Satan=Santa---- Looking at the pope picture, I can't stop thinking that it is how I would picture satan if he existed ...  |
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JACkory
Struggling Artist
Posts: 167
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Post by JACkory on Dec 29, 2007 17:59:38 GMT -5
Who told you that ? A Burning Bush ... ?? My uncle. |
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Post by phil on Dec 29, 2007 20:07:13 GMT -5
Your uncle name is Burning Bush ... ?? !!
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Post by Thorngrub on Dec 31, 2007 13:12:20 GMT -5
Does any one else think the pope looks evil in that pic ?
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Post by phil on Jan 19, 2008 9:27:49 GMT -5
**The lost chapter of Genesis**
Adam was hanging around the garden of Eden feeling very lonely. So God asked him "What is wrong with you?" Adam said he didn't have anyone to talk to.
God said that he was going to make Adam a companion and that it would be a woman.
He said "This pretty lady will gather food for you, she will cook for you, and when you discover clothing she will wash it for you. She will always agree with every decision you make and she will not nag you and will always be the first to admit she was wrong when you've had a disagreement. She will praise you. She will attend to all your cares and be ever present to soothe your furrowed brow. She will never have a headache and will freely give you love and passion whenever you need it."
"How wonderful" said Adam and asked God: "but what will a woman like this cost?"
"Quite a bit, I'm afraid" replied God "It will cost an arm and a leg."
Adam thought for a bit, then asked "What do I get for a rib?"
Of course the rest is history.
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by phil on Jan 19, 2008 10:03:12 GMT -5
Speaking of "History" ... All you need to know about Pterodactyls ...  This is an executive overview of pterosaur research that is being presented as part of Project Pterosaur, a joint venture of Fellowship University and the Fairlight Institute, whose goal is to mount an expedition to bring back living pterosaurs so that they may testify against Evolutionism and to the Lord's Creation. Please visit the Project Pterosaur page to learn more.  Pterosaurs, including the ancestors of pterodactyls (middle left)
and rhamphorhynchi (middle right), lived peacefully
with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
(Artistic reconstruction by Peggy Miller.)... They were created by the Lord on the fifth day of His Creation Week (Genesis 1:20-22) and were a constant presence in the skies over Eden, where they peacefully ate fruit and plants. After the Fall, many of their descendants degenerated to a carnivorous diet and became feared by man, although non-wicked specimens preserved on the Ark helped to temper this degenerative tendency after the Flood. ...  Remains of wicked pterodactyl found in Flood sediments.
Note penitent stance preserved at moment of death.  Pterosaurs are today primarily known from fossil remains preserved in the Flood; but, this wasn't always so. Contrary to Evolutionistic philosophy, historical reports of pterosaurs are numerous, although these reports are not often recognized as such by modern researchers since the animals were never referred to as "pterosaurs" before that term was coined in the 19th Century, instead being given various other descriptive names. The most well-reported historical pterosaur was a member of the rhamphorhynchoid baramin indigenous to Arabia and Egypt, which was known to the Hebrews as a saraph (not to be confused with the Holy Seraphim) and in the KJV Bible as a "fiery flying serpent." Pterosaurs of the Americas: The Americas have been home to what may be the largest and most spectacular flying beast that ever lived: the Thunderbird. Although many Indian reports of thunderbirds include details, like feathers, that are more avian than pterosaurian, this may be the result of natives -- who have long since forgotten Adam's true names for animals and are thus a bit confused about taxonomy -- conflating the rarely seen creatures with eagles and other more common large birds. In reality, the thunderbird was a pterodactyl of gigantic proportions and was probably covered in a fine, variously colored fur, which accounts for attributions of feathers and color patterns.  Confederate soldiers posing with a thunderbird they shot down, c. 1860s. objectiveministries.org/creation/pterosaurs.htmlComing soon to every high schools of the U.S.A. ?? |
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JACkory
Struggling Artist
Posts: 167
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Post by JACkory on Jan 19, 2008 16:22:52 GMT -5
I need to buy a new thesaurus.
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Post by phil on Jan 19, 2008 17:27:43 GMT -5
What's wrong with the old ... ? May I suggest you get a nice Spinosaurus instead ...  |
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JACkory
Struggling Artist
Posts: 167
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Post by JACkory on Mar 2, 2008 12:31:19 GMT -5
Do you suppose, you that sell, that this pint of yours has been sweet to me? It was tribulation I sought at the bottom of it, tears and tribulation, and have found it, and I have tasted it; but He will pity us who had pity on all men, Who has understood all men and all things, He is the One, He, too, is the judge." - Fyodor Dostoevsky ("Crime and Punishment")
Having just finished reading the extremely lightweight "Cross" by James Patterson, I felt inclined to turn to more challenging fare. I decided to tackle Dostoevsky's "Crime and Punishment". I've attempted to read it a couple of times in the past, but I wasn't "ready' for it. I think I am, now.
Only a couple of chapters into it, I've already come upon a passage that rings true. It takes place in a dingy pub where the main character, Raskolnikov has found his way to. He is engaged in conversation with Marmeladov, a drunk outcast who proceeds to tell him of how he has repeatedly disappointed his wife and his children, selling all they own for drink. It gets so bad that his daughter, Sophie, enters into a life of prostitution to make ends meet. Things take an upward turn for Marmeladov and his kin after he begs his former employer for his job back. The man takes pity on him and restores him to his former office. His family is ecstatic, and they treat him with a newfound respect. Then, when he recieves his wages, he disappears and sinks once again to the bottom of a glass. After five days on a hay barge he swallows his pride and seeks out his daughter, Sophia, whose occupation as a harlot has made her the chief "bread winner" in the house. He begs for more money, both of them knowing what he plans on doing with it, and she gives it to him. And so, this is how he has wound up in the pot house, greasy, grimy, flecks of hay still clinging to his worn-out clothes, far past inebriation.
Irredeemable. Marmeladov has sacrificed everything he has for drink. Alcohol has dominated his list of priorities for so long (and done so with such power) that he won't give it up even though it would mean saving his daughter from the life of a prostitute.
When you think about it some more you come to see that it is not his devotion to the bottle that makes him so low. It's not even the way in which he has treated his family. As I see it, these are not the things that make him "irredeemable".
It's the selfishness. It's the placing of his own wants and desires above his own needs and the needs of his loved ones. On a deeper level it's an apathy extended to any and everyone, that says "You are not as important to me as what I can get from you to serve my own needs". Oh, he puts on airs. He cries in his beer and speaks of his devotion to his wife and children. Maybe he's trying to convince himself, maybe he knows deep down that, at some point, he's decided they don't truly matter. Certainly not in relation to the drink and the opportunity to wallow in self-pity that he seems to relish.
He ends a spiel with a proclamation that the Lord will forgive all, even the worst of sinners:
"...And He will judge and will forgive all, the good and the evil, the wise and the meek...And when He has done with all of them, then He will summon us. "You too come forth," He will say. "Come forth ye drunkards, come forth, ye weak ones, come forth, ye children of shame!" And we shall all come forth, without shame and shall stand before Him. And He will say unto us; "Ye are swine, made in the Image of the Beast and with his mark: but come ye also!" And the wise ones and the ones of understanding will say: "Oh Lord, why dost Thou receive these men?" And He will say: " This is why I receive them, oh ye wise, this is thy I receive them, oh ye of understanding, that not one of them believed himself worthy of this". And He will hold out His hands to us and we shall fall down before Him...and we shall weep...and we shall understand all things! Then we shall understand all...and all will understand..."
The ravings of a downtrodden "swine"? The hope-laced declaration of a drunkard fully aware of his worthlessness to society? A theologically mistaken outburst of opinion informed by a dream of forgiveness?
Or maybe a subconscious understanding of, and desire for, GRACE.
I see a lot of blogs and MySpace pages where the author describes himself/herself as "Saved by Grace". I think that's fantastic. More power to 'em. But I have to wonder how many Christians truly grasp the idea of "Grace". How many of them still cling to some notion that you're either saved or you're not, and that there is some kind of choice that has to be made between heaven and hell.
"Choose Jesus", then stand in His grace. I'm sorry, but I don't think Christ died on the cross so He could reign into His grace only those who made a conscious decision to 'choose" Him. He either died for all men or He didn't.
Punishment at the Judgement? I wouldn't doubt that in many ways, whether we are coginizant of it or not, just living on this planet of suffering is punishment enough for even the worst crimes against humanity. That doesn't excuse anyone who has done heinous things. It doesn't mean that the world has been rougher on that person than on anyone else. Just that, in relation to whatever comes after this life, this existance is a hard one (cursed, as it is, since the Fall, you know). If thought and emotions are a part of that "heaven", I would think that forgiveness, and the ability to forgive, would be a lot easier to do than it is here.
Theologically unsound, surely. I gladly concede that. But there is hope within me. A lot of times I feel like I'm every bit as depraved and irredeemable as Marmeladov. I know I'm pretty damn selfish, perhaps not to the point that he was. Then again, selfishness is one trait that every single one of us shares. Some have nurtured it more than others. Some have allowed it to rule and reign over them.
What about me? How far gone am I? To what extent have I forsaken the opportunity to be compassionate and subjucated it to my own wants and desires? I confess. I have done it too often. I don't know but that the damage is too extensive to be repaired. At least, not in this life.
Yesterday evening, as I tried to fall asleep, one of the many scattered thoughts swimming about in my mind was this: "It's not how you think it is. Nothing is as you think it is." And that was my mantra for the rest of the night. It brought comfort. I don't understand these lofty things because I am INCAPABLE of understanding them. EVERYONE is. The human mind just doesn't travel that far into comprehension. It was never meant to. If it could then it would no longer be a human mind but the mind of God. If I could just keep this in mind and relax I would see that theology is nothing but a game, a complicated game. It's a cosmic football game where the "players" are differing viewpoints clashing against each other, only there is no winner and no loser because the game never ends.
Philosophy, too, in the grand scheme of things, is a futile exercise. It's not a bad thing (neither is theology, for that matter), in fact, it is essential to the development of the inquisitive mind. What I'm saying is this: how many people, on their deathbeds, one moment away from their last breath, are going to cross that bridge with the unyielding assurance that all they've come to accept as "good", "evil", "right", wrong"...ANY OF IT...is "The Way It Really Is"? An infinitesmally scant few, I would wager.
Introspection blesses with comprehension and worldly understanding.
It also curses, when you look deep enough to see the vanity of it all.
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JACkory
Struggling Artist
Posts: 167
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Post by JACkory on Mar 3, 2008 12:21:19 GMT -5
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Post by upinkzeppelin2 on Mar 24, 2008 0:13:01 GMT -5
Well it's Ressurrection Day (I learned recently that Easter is the name of the goddess of Ishtar or whatever) and I decided to meet my parents to go to their church this morning and my Mom asked me if I was going to dress up and I gently informed her that I don't dress up for God. So I walked in in my t-shirt and tennis shoes and looked all around me at all the people in their suits and ties. But I'm not concerned with their feelings in the least. What matters much more to me is the man or woman or teenager who can't afford nice clothes and is uncomfortable about walking into "God's house" because of their shabby appearance.
I enjoyed the message. It was all centered around 1 Corinthians 15 and about how we are the most miserable of all people if the resurrection isn't true. He did a good job, I must say, of preaching the importance of the ressurrection in the believer's life.
The reason I write about my experience this morning though is I sensed such a constricted traditionalism among these people that seemed really friendly and probably for the most part really cared about the Lord and reaching people for His sake. But I was reminded of what Brennan Manning wrote in his classic, the The Ragamuffin Gospel, (actually he was quoting someone else, I'm pretty sure, and it went something like this):
"The church must never be a museum of saints, but a hospital for sinners."
I visited my mentor, Bob McLeod, a couple of weekends ago and he reminded me of the truth that people will always gravitate towards acceptance and away from rejection and that many, many people don't feel acceptance under a steeple.
My Mom and Dad were talking afterward while we ate out about how "Brother Mike just won't let people express their gifts. He won't let the rain come down." Immediately after that my Dad said, "Don't you know what Church stands for?" I was waiting to see what he would say and he uttered the truest acronym I've probably ever heard......."Can't Have Untrained Regular Christians Heard." Brilliant, I tell you. Spot on.
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