Mos Eisley's Blue Milk Lounge

[Adam]

phil said:

You guys are worse geeks than Trekkies ... Ô~Ô ...

Beat it, spoil sport.

[Adam]

pcook said:

So what are some things y'all would have like to see in the prequels? Or do you think they're fine just the way they are?

As I mentioned before, what hurts PM is that its plot is nothing but a flimsy excuse to get all the characters together, set in place. The Trade Federation's dirty dealings with the Sith is so dull yet the only payoff I can sense is that it leads to Palpatine grabbing the Chancellor position from Vallorum: Couldn't this have been handled with a more exciting set-up?

I found the Sith to be excellent characters. I say, more backstory could've worked. Why do they need revenge? What made them outcasts? How many of them actually exist?
Give Darth Maul his due. He had more potential than a killing machine.

Queen Amidala's Bacall-ish, bass-heavy voice was a wrong move. Let Portman keep her voice, its all she has left under that fucking head-gear (better yet, lose all that shit, too).

(And Ken? I'm sure you realize Knightley was the fake Queen. You're remark about her brought this up.)

The alien race that Nute Gunray belongs to? Axe 'em. If you must keep them, give them better accents than the sound of someone speaking phonetically.

I say, start out with Anakin as a Jedi in training. If you must see him young, start out at pre-teen at least, out of the "youngling" stage (what a dumb name). His backstory can be summed up in some dialogue, nothing fancy. Maybe some flashbacks, I dunno.

This may have upped the budget considerably, but I think the 2nd film should've been focused on the Clone Wars (assuming events in AOTC would be the first film), instead of leaving that to cartoonists. One of my expecatations upon awaiting the prequels was to see what the Clone Wars were like.

In AOTC's case, only the romance subplot doesn't ring true. What's needed here is simply better dialogue (and maybe less dependency on it for the actors to express their feelings; this was one of ROTS achievements). And the romance doesn't feel as forbidden. We've got 2 fully grown, mature individuals and they frolic (?). Make them act their age.
Lucas has a tendency to start some scenes with a slight pause between actors. Dumb move. Have the chatter commence right away.

Everything else was fine.

But, really, you can keep the 2 prequels as they are and all that could've saved them was a better scripts and tighter pacing. I'm happy with Sith although Padme's and Anakin's scenes are still the weakpoints (they just don't overwhelm the film, is all).

[Paul]

kenholzman said:

And if I were going to change anything in the prequels, I would have brought in a more charismatic actor than Liam Neesen to play Qui-Gon (and someone better at acting with green screens -- this is a real skill that Neesen simply doesn't have; his acting was really worse than Jar-Jar as I think about it). Likewise, I'm not sure that Portman was the best pick for Padme ... maybe Kiera Knightly might have been a better choice (again, she just seems more comfortable with green screen work).

Liam Neesen IMO was the best part of Ep 1. He hands down carries that film, the way Ewan carries the next two. Without those two actors, the prequels would have been even more of a let down than they already were...IMO.

Liam for me defined what a Jedi should be; I truly believe this is one of the few parts Lucas nailed in the prequels. My only regret about Liam is that his part was taken out of Ep 3. I don't know if it was filmed or not, but in Ep 3, there is dialoge between Yoda and Qui-gon that was left on the cutting floor. To my knowledge, Liam Neeson did record some dialoge for Ep 3, but for whatever reason, Lucas decided not to include it.

[Weeping_Guitar]

kenholzman said:

And if I were going to change anything in the prequals, I would have brought in a more charismatic actor than Liam Neesen to play Qui-Gon (and someone better at acting with green screens -- this is a real skill that Neesen simply doesn't have; his acting was really worse than Jar-Jar as I think about it). Likewise, I'm not sure that Portman was the best pick for Padme ... maybe Kiera Knightly might have been a better choice (again, she just seems more comfortable with green screen work).

The Padme character just was never got on track. Portman admits she was overwhelmed in the first film and I have no idea why they went with the deep voice when she was the queen-just weird. It's too bad the character was definitely short sided in Episode 3 too, but that one had the Anakin and Obi-Wan matchup to make up the shortness. I really just think Anakin and Padme needed to be the same age and needed to do something together in the first film because you've got your easy "hiding it from the parentals" type relationship. Put them in action together, that way you can streamline your dialogue and add in rescues, etc. She just as easily could have been a Sentor's daughter or something because her being the Queen really had little significance other than the fact she was someone important enough to escape the planet with the Jedi.

[Weeping_Guitar]

I liked Neeson in Episode 1 and he certainly isn't the only one a bit confused by the green screen. It comes down to a directorial problem that Lucas loves to admit: he isn't great with actors. The first two movies are basically Lucas's strengths (ideas, production) and weakness (directing actors, writing) in full form. As Harrison Ford would say, it's simply "faster and more intense" - I've always assumed Sophia Coppola lovingly parodies this in Lost In Translation when Murray is filming the commercial.

Adam, it was Ken who wanted Knightley and I was going to call him out on it, but you already had.

[Adam]

Sorry, Weeping. I fixed the glitch.

[Kensterberg]

I knew it was Knightly who played the fake queen, which is one reason I could see her doing the whole part. I think part of my problem with Neesen as Qui-Gon is simply that I don't find Liam to be that compelling on screen. Love, Actually was one of the few times I've been really pulled in by him in a role -- he just doesn't connect with me generally.

I think George made the right call leaving out the dialogue between Qui-Gon and Yoda. You don't need to connect every single dot between the two trilogies! The little scene between Obi-Wan and Yoda was more than sufficient, and IMO explains why Obi-Wan was so willing to martyr himself with Vader while Luke was watching.

And BTW, I agree that Ewan McGreggor became an exceptional Obi-Wan Kenobi. He was adequate in PM, really did a good job in Clones, and simply owned the role in Sith. Revenge of the Sith belonged to Obi-Wan Kenobi. After that, it really makes sense why the rebels wanted to enlist his aid 20 years later. Even as an old man, he'd have great value in rallying planets for the rebellion.

Well, this has been fun chatting, but I've got a hearing to run off to. And remember, the Force will be with you, always.

[Weeping_Guitar]

kenholzman said:

And BTW, I agree that Ewan McGreggor became an exceptional Obi-Wan Kenobi. He was adequate in PM, really did a good job in Clones, and simply owned the role in Sith. Revenge of the Sith belonged to Obi-Wan Kenobi. After that, it really makes sense why the rebels wanted to enlist his aid 20 years later. Even as an old man, he'd have great value in rallying planets for the rebellion.

He was certainly the best part of the last 2 films. Tis sad his role in the first one was so small. All the little mannerisms he took from Guiness were a welcome touch that really makes a difference.

[Kensterberg]

Yeah, if I were gonna change up the prequals dramatically, I'd have made them more about Obi-Wan. I don't think I would have shown him as a padawan at all -- I'd start with him as a Jedi Master finding this talented youngster, and taking him on as an apprentice, and probably would have had the Clone Wars keep him from having Anakin properly trained by Yoda (b/c Yoda was too busy with the war, and b/c Obi-Wan needed all the brave soldiers he could find). And so young Anakin's training would not have been properly structured, and he could be led astray by Darth Sidious (though I frankly think that Lucas did a good job with the seduction of Anakin Skywalker in Revenge of the Sith).

Of course, I also wouldn't have bothered tying Boba Fett into the prequals, or having Yoda on the Wookie planet, so people would probably have hated my movies, too. But I would have had more stuff like Obi-Wan and Anakin tracking the assassin on Corusant, or the beginning set piece in Sith. Lots of buddy stuff w/first teenage Anakin and then twentysomething Anakin embracing the second banana role, then growing steadily more resentful of his Master. I would have also played up that element in Clones where Anakin talks about imposing order on the galaxy, for its own good. This is a common impulse among certain totalitarian thinkers: that I'm the only one who can safeguard the people and give them the best life. Vader obviously believes very strongly in what he is doing, and I liked the seed that was planted in Clones to explain why, though I thought Lucas let that drift a bit in Sith in choosing to focus so much on Anakin's fear of losing Padme. It was mentioned a time or two, but I just might have hit that a bit harder.

And I probably would have tossed in a couple of assassinations of other Jedi by the newly minted Darth Vader. We saw a flash of fighting between Anakin and adult Jedi in the Temple, but I'd have spent at least ten or fifteen minutes showing Vader taking out his fellow Jedi -- maybe even killing someone with a force choke or something while holding off another Jedi in a lightsabre duel. Yeah, that would have been cool to have had Vader pause while fighting to use the Force to pull down some heavy object on another Jedi running at him. I would've done some of that just to show just how powerful the intact Vader, fully in touch with the Dark Side, was. That (might) reduce the bitching about not seeing suited Vader doing this kind of thing.

But this is really just quibbles on my part ... I'm beginning to sound like one of those Star Wars fans that writes their own fiction, etc. Loved the movies, all of 'em. And Revenge of the Sith was the best Star Wars movie Lucas has ever directed ... and that includes the original (which had always been my favorite of the films).

[Thorngrub]

I think it was pcook who asked earlier herein, should CLONE WARS be included in this discussion?


Absa-shmaba-tutely! Just watched VOLUME 2 of the animated clone wars, and I can tell you with perfect self-assurance, *these animated Clone Wars are an absolutely essential component of the Star Wars mythos*.

I would go so far as to say they provide a certain quality-of-entertainment value that the latest feature films lack. As such, they are the perfect companion pieces to lead into the first 3 episodes, and lend them more meaning and depth.

Watching the CLONE WARS before embarking on all 6 feature films is kind of similar to reading the SILMARILLION before engaging oneself in the narrative of the LOTR: both works provide crucial background information and adventures that set the scene for what is to come later.

I have yet to see all of VOLUME 1 of these CLONE WARS; we watched VOLUME 2 over the weekend, but I can say that I now count them as a bonafide extension of the actual movies.

One of the best things about the CLONE WARS animated series is that it provides me with that same sense of wonder and satisfaction which SATURDAY MORNING CARTOONS did when I was a kid: back when they were really good, that is.

Do not make the mistake of dismissing these "cartoons" as being kid fluff or whatnot; they are every bit as integral to the overall story of Star Wars as the movies, imo. For one, they really put the WARS back into STAR WARS. You get nonstop battle action and get serious involvement with the various Jedi and goings-on during the clone wars that lead up to the action which starts off Episode III.

You get to see just what a freakin badass General Grievous really is, not to mention Dooku while he trains him. As a matter of fact, most of the Star Wars characters, whether good or evil, are given a real solid treatment in this animated series.

I'd wager I'm one of the last "real fans" to actually realize that the CLONE WARS series is every bit as important as the movies themselves. Even the parts with Amidala and Anakin are refreshing, because reduced to the context of animation, somehow -- ironically -- the cheesiness is actually reduced and we once again are reminded of the pathos inherent to their affair.

After all is said and done, CLONE WARS comes not highly recommended, but rather, absolutely mandatory viewing for every fan of Star Wars.

[Adam]

Hey, Gretchen, quit trying to make "Absa-shmaba-tutely!" happen!

;D

[Kensterberg]

Thorny -- FYI, Lucas has given the official "canon" seal to the Clone Wars cartoons. I haven't seen 'em myself, but my undertanding is that what happens in those (and in the Labrynth of Evil book, which brings the story right up to the beginning of Revenge of the Sith) is to be taken as if it had been on the big screen.

My little brother has seen those cartoons, and loves 'em. I gave him Lab. of Evil last spring (his b-day was right after Sith came out), and he loved it too. I guess that Anakin's shakey mental state is really shown in that book -- I've heard him described as "the poster boy for PTSD" based on the book. So that might be something you should check out, too.

[Paul]

The Clone Wars dare I say are better than the new films....It's sad so many key elements were left up to a cartoon -- to name a few: the contruction of a lightsaber, further development of Anakin's and Obi's relationship, Anakin showing why he is the best fighter in the galaxy, Dooku training Grevious, Force Ghost/Anakin communicating w/ Qui-Gon Jinn, Anankin coming even closer to the dark side, and last but not least...The freakin' clone wars!!!! How Lucas left these things out of the films I'll never understand.

[Thorngrub]

adam said:

Hey, Gretchen, quit trying to make "Absa-shmaba-tutely!" happen!

;D

dude you freaked me out with this i can't really explain it but for you to say what you just said is something very peculiar indeed what gives who are you who do you work for how much are you getting paid and if the answer is none of the above then which of my oldschool friends are you really? *white as a ghost*

[Thorngrub]

kenholzman said:

Thorny -- FYI, Lucas has given the official "canon" seal to the Clone Wars cartoons. I haven't seen 'em myself, but my undertanding is that what happens in those (and in the Labrynth of Evil book, which brings the story right up to the beginning of Revenge of the Sith) is to be taken as if it had been on the big screen.

My little brother has seen those cartoons, and loves 'em. I gave him Lab. of Evil last spring (his b-day was right after Sith came out), and he loved it too. I guess that Anakin's shakey mental state is really shown in that book -- I've heard him described as "the poster boy for PTSD" based on the book. So that might be something you should check out, too.

Holzman, thanks for the tip-off: "Labyrinth Of Evil" sounds right up my alley; now I haven't read any of the Star Wars books, but this sounds like the ideal starting point. (Well, of course I read "Splinter of the MInds's Eye" back in tha day) . . . can I ask ye somethin though? What does "PTSD" stand for?