Roger Waters vs Syd Barrett

[Thorngrub]

almost forgot:



"...You shuffle in the gloom of a sick room, and talk to yourself as you DIE"

[Rit]

in tribute to the full scope of Floyd you mentioned, Thorn, i re-post this old nugget

[Thorngrub]

Omigod!

That pic is AWEsome ! ! ! ! !! ! ! ! ! ! !! !

Dude: that is *stellar* ~ !

Very nice. Thank you.

Awesome photograph

[Thorngrub]

All sittin there, proud, smug, hands crossed in their laps, as if to say, each one of them, yeah, I'm the shit, I'm an integral part of the Floyd, so suck it.

If I may say so, I believe that to be THE most representative photo of Pink Floyd ever taken.

[Rit]

yeah, it's pretty sweet.
it's like an iconic moment in history.

it encapsulates something extraordinary and exciting for me. always will. it just seems to suggest limitless possibilities.

[melon1]

Thought I'd pull a few up for the new guys/girls.

[sisyphus]

roger waters can never be over rated! blasphemy!

[Rit]

oh he can, and is, on a regular basis.

[melon1]

Nope

[sisyphus]

maarts said:

I will not go as far as to say that either Waters or Barrett are overrated but it's almost as if you are talking about two seperate entities here. Sort of how Genesis mutated from the Gabriel-era into the Collins-MOR-era.

well put...

[Rit]

the Pink Floyd. damn i've come to love them in the past year. but always with exceptions. ah yes, the qualifications:

List of only The Pink Floyd catalogue that matters (and i promise, no more Waters bashing, i've come to see the merits of him):

.London '66-'67
.The Piper At The Gates of Dawn
.A Saucerful of Secrets
.More
.Atom Heart Mother
.Meddle
.The Dark Side of the Moon

(*plus the collection of oddments and ideas and live stuff which they slyly released same year as their album proper from 1969 (More), which they called in a fit of the surreal, Ummagumma*)

Waters can be appreciated like fine wine, if you characterize him properly. The Floydian catalogue is rich indeed when you know what to look for.

[Rit]

The Pink Floyd Catalogue

London '66-'67
two tracks of near brilliant expository acid rock, the earliest tracks that the Floyd ever recorded. The tracks strike me as brash and confident, the work of a still nascent band at the height of their enthusiasm and displaying a surprising amount of cohesion for what is basically a bunch of inept musicians. (they were inept then and they still are, yet there was a magic to their explorations then that i don't find now). in conclusion, i'd ask that you keep in mind that both these tracks, esp "Interstellar Overdrive", were created as dance music, albeit dance music of a kinetic and probing kind. This simple fact elevates the whole exercise into another level... what were the Floyd at this point if not wholly and brilliantly Modern?

The Piper At The Gates of Dawn
can anything more be said about this Hermetic masterpiece? in my opinion, the best thing the Floyd ever put out, a tremendous idiosyncratic work, miles out of the league of the bearded fat American psychedelic bands (and the other British pretentious fuckwit prog bands too). There's a wild-eyed incandescent brilliance that positively radiates outwards from this glowing artefact. Treat it like sincere (if witty) pagan offering from Syd's mind, and you will not be dissappointed.

A Saucerful of Secrets
the dawning of the Roger Waters era, and the sad decline of Syd's genius. But the album is still affecting nonetheless. The psychological headspace of the band clearly changed on this album. No more free-wheeling paeans to the gods, but more calculatedly self-conscious attempts to broach the divine. Except that, with a band faltering on such a level, the divine sometimes feels like the work of a hooligan trying to sound deep. Sometimes. There is enough magic on this to make it worthwhile, however.

More
Their proper 1969 release, contrary to "tried and true" rock historians. Another shift in direction from the band. Roger Waters laid the foundation for much of what they would do in the next 4 years on this album - pretty acoustic ballads, and pastoral lyrical themes. What makes this album work, though, is the manic eclecticism of it, the tense and uneasy experimental pieces, and the genuine melodicism of it. It's a pretty great album, all things considered. The band was casting itself (quite consciously) as troupe of warlocks of the sound of music, (in the absense of their run-amok genius) and the attempt is praiseworthy.

*to be continued*

[Rit]

Ummagumma
nothing more than half-baked experiments, some hits, some misses, live songs, and unfinished ideas. the "Sisyphus" track is a good example. Frustratingly conceived. It starts out well enough, with a musical motif that feels fresh and exciting, but totally flatlines about a quarter of the way through. The execution of it was lazy, and it really is nothing more than an insipid pretentious bit of wank. Some of the other tracks though are good. I'm thinking especially of "The Narrow Way pt. 3" and "Grantchester Meadows".

Atom Heart Mother
Another volte face by the band, with creaks and disillusionment creeping through. You can literally sense that this was the moment that Roger Waters realized that he was no second coming of Syd, and the admittedly crafty mind of Waters began to look elsewhere. It wouldn't be the same bunch of Warlocks after this. 1970 marks the end of phase one of the Floyd. In any case, we have a rather long and overbaked prog piece here which feels infantile and pretentious in the worst possible light. This is probably the worst album in the catalogue of the Floyd, and also one of the worst albums of the 1970s, which is really saying something. It is only redeemed by the audacity of the band's ideas, and their determination to avoid repeating themselves.. but unfortunately, they ended up with nothing more than a parody of what they were capable of. I suppose the main problem is the lack of vision and imagination... it would prove to be all downhill from here on in.

[Rit]

Meddle
The beginning of the Waters ascendancy, and the start of the complete abandonment of their wild-eyed youth. There is a somewhat enjoyable consistency and calmness of vision here, but in my opinion, it takes a distinct second to something like Piper. I'm more interested in the unreplicable, the idiosyncratic, and the force of authentic genius, all of which this phase of the Floyd lacked. They lost a kind of spark of spirit and unpredicatability in order to transform into careerists for the long haul. However, Waters' main lyrical themes are displayed in full force here for the first time, and it proved to be highly accessible to the general public. More power to him, i guess. I need to explain myself more... yes, in hindsight, this may appear to be where the Floyd started to get things right, but that is a false trick of the eye. You forget where they came from, and the sheer promise they held in 1967. They were no mere prog-rawk band then, they were delving into an authentic mode of sublime, unplanned, unregimented, and totally rawkus. That 1967-1968 model was a unique thing in rock music up to that point, blowing wide open the potential for where the headspace of a modern rock band can situate itself. In this, they are more akin to the Velvet Underground and Captain Beefheart than anything else. When the last vestiges of Syd left the band (in 1970), they became less a brash troupe of soundwarriors and more a conglomerate of professionals. The loss is hardly appreciated by most Pink Floyd fans, and that is a crying shame

The Dark Side of The Moon
This indisputable masterpiece is the best thing Waters and co. ever found it within themselves to put out. The music is tremendously affecting, the themes simple and direct. It still feels more ordinary than some of their past work, but that is no slight, i suppose. It is an enthralling work by a consummate and professional band of rockers. (i.e., we are a long way from Syd, Toto.) After this, there was the success of an album like Obscured By Clouds, with its opening track of pure Krautrock, but for the most part, the coming decade was riddled with hackneyed, cliched, and tired attempts to 'kiss the sky'.

The End

[maarts]

So far I disagree virtually with everything you've written. Carry on.