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Post by Rit on Jan 21, 2006 8:51:10 GMT -5
oi.
how come i never see you on at the same time as JLLM?
conspiracy. you two are actually the same person!
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Post by dolly on Jan 21, 2006 8:57:49 GMT -5
oi. how come i never see you on at the same time as JLLM? conspiracy. you two are actually the same person! How could we be logged on at the same time silly? Unless we lined our computers up side by side and sat here posting to each other - who would be sad enough to do that?  |
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Post by Rit on Jan 21, 2006 9:07:24 GMT -5
yeah, well... i'm still keeping my eye on you both. i'm taking notes too. careful notes.
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Post by dolly on Jan 21, 2006 9:29:19 GMT -5
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Post by Galactus on Jan 21, 2006 12:14:24 GMT -5
Well, you've done it. I'll be completely obsessed with The Kinks for at least a month.
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Post by Kensterberg on Jan 21, 2006 12:38:29 GMT -5
I was poking around the iTunes music store last night, and wound up listening to a ton of Kinks samples. I really hate to say it, but I think that I may have actually overrated the Kinks before. While I realize it isn't exactly fair to make a determination about a band based on a bunch of thirty second clips, but it did jog my memory as to why I've never been completely Konverted to Kinks' fandom.
First up, Ray Davies is both far too camp and far too clever for his own good. A lot of stuff from the late sixties and early seventies really seems like combining the worst aspects of McCartneyesque nostalgia for a past that never was, and the fey showbiz moves of Bryan Ferry or Bowie. It reminds me of vaudeville or English music hall. Combine that with the fact that these concept albums are so pretentious as to make Pink Floyd seem positively restrained by comparison, and you've got the makings of a band I just can't adore.
But then there are the albums which are simply albums, the stellar early singles before Davies thought he was poet lauriette (sp?) of the British Empire, and the fantastic late seventies/early eighties comeback which yielded Give the People What They Want and State of Confusion, both of which showed that not only had Davies inspired Paul Weller, but that he understood (in large part) how rock had been changed by punk, and could take albums like Sound Affects as inspiration himself.
I guess I'm with the Kinks the way a lot of folks are with Dylan. I love a lot of their songs, but I'm just as happy (or happier, actually) to hear someone else cover them. Ray is by no means a great singer, even when viewed from the post-Dylan perspective which recognizes that there is a difference between a great voice and a great rock and roll voice. My favorite Kinks tunes are the ones where Ray is shouting, or where his mannerisms don't detract from the melodies and the instrumentation doesn't stray too far from rock norms.
I'm happy to give them credit for all those killer singles, but I don't think that the Kinks will be climbing my personal rankings of the greatest UK bands any time soon. If I were redoing that list today, I'd rate them well back in the pack, likely below Radiohead.
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Post by Paul on Jan 22, 2006 12:27:14 GMT -5
You really shouldn't judge the Kinks based from 30 second clips from iTunes....First off, iTunes only has the Kinks material from the 70's, and for many, their work in that time is a bit spotty. IMO the only true masterpiece from the RCA/Arista era (1971-1984) is Muswell Hillbillies, and there is no way shape or form that this album can be judged in 30 second clips; there is simply too much depth on that album. As for the rest of the iTunes catalog, again there are some really cool moments on each of those albums, and in some cases showcases the Kinks at their best; however, none of it (except Muswell) touches what they accomplished in the 60's (which iTunes has none of). Plus, MP3's sound like shit, so to fully appreciate the music it needs to be heard either on record or CD, or SACD. Of the albums iTunes has, I'd recommend Muswell, and Sleepwalkers. A new fan, or someone getting re-introduced to the Kinks should not start off w/ the rock opera albums. Many view those albums (Preservation Act 1 &2, Soap Opera, and School Boys) as the Kinks dark ages. Personally I like them, but I'm fully aware they are not everyone's cup of tea.
I don't think Ray was all that pretentious, especially not compared to Lou Reed. I can certainly see, er hear how those rock opera albums would come off as pretentious; I mean it's a pretty ballsy thing to do, and it's not for everyone. Even I have some trouble w/ their rock opera albums. They're good, but I just think Ray got a little ahead of himself, and lost focus. All this was around the same time as the Glam rock, hence the reason the Kinks were signed on RCA to compliment Bowie and Lou Reed. RCA felt that after the success of "Lola" the Kinks were transforming into a glam rock band, instead they released a country album, then multiple opera albums. I don't think the Kinks were copying Bowie, b/c all of this was around the same time and if anything, Bowie was taking a page from the Kinks playbook.
What you heard from the Kinks really is the wrong place to start. Again, 30 second clips in no way represent what those albums are about, but more importantly to get introduced to the Kinks, one should really start in 1964 w/ the self-titled album. You are kinda right that those early to mid 70's concept/opera albums were a bit pretentious, but to hear the Kinks in their true glory w/ the concept album you should listen to Face to Face, Village Green Preservation Society, Arthur, and Lola. Those albums are far from being pretentious, and offer some of the best writing Ray Davies ever did. Plus a lot of the concept albums of the 60's were more theme driven, not plot like w/ the rock opera albums. The Kinks were certainly not as pretentious as the Velvet Underground, so it's a little funny to me that you'd say that about them, and shut them out just like that.
I guess my whole rant is simply just saying don't judge the Kinks from 30 second clips on iTunes from the rock opera years. Get Face to Face, and truly hear some of the best social commentary, music hall/brit pop/quirky rock ever recorded; then get Arthur for the Kinks at their absolute best.
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Post by dolly on Jan 22, 2006 13:22:27 GMT -5
That saves me a job - couldn't have said it better myself. Shame on you Holzman!  |
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Post by Kensterberg on Jan 22, 2006 16:36:53 GMT -5
I knew I was gonna draw flack for this, but we've got to gore sacred cows on occassion, right?
I'm actually pretty familiar with the Kinks' sixties singles. I used to have a two LP set that was pretty comprehensive. I also used to own Something Else, but found the sound quality to be simply unlistenable b/c of the awful job transferring it to cd. The best of those singles are killers (You Really Got Me, All Day and All of the Night, Stop Your Sobbing, the wonderful Waterloo Sunset, etc.), but a lot of 'em just don't connect with me (unfortunately, this includes tracks like David Watts, Victoria, and Death of a Clown).
And I didn't mean to imply that Davies was aping either Bowie or Macca. Rather, I meant to simply state that Davies songs often took the worst of McCartney's world view and combined it with the kind of overly stagey and campy moves which Bowie on occassion went too far over the top with as well. And this can be really annoying, at least to me.
Also, Davies suffers from the same disease that have lead both Bowie and Townshend to also often neglect their fundemental strengths (song writing) in favor of pursuing the lofty goal of "concept" albums. And frankly, all of the Kinks concept LPs strike me (from what little I know of them) as being every bit as pretentious, dull, and ultimately pointless as Diamond Dogs or Psychoderelict (both of which bore me to tears whenever I try to listen to them all the way through). Again, when Davies could be bothered to me more concerned with his songs than with big themes, he's capable of genius. But there's so much unlistenable stuff mixed in with those gems ...
So in short, I'm saying that it looks like the Kinks are going to wind up in the same category as Neil Young for me. Both are capable of brilliance, but don't know when to reign in their worst impulses. And both are prone to pretentions that can undermine their best work (and intentions). So neither will make my personal top tier of great rockers.
Though I still love the fact that you guys love the Kinks so much, and it's very cool to read some evangelizing for a band who have definitely recieved the short end of the promo stick throughout their career. I'll continue to keep an open mind about the Kinks, but right now, for my money, State of Confusion is my favorite Kinks album, with Give the People What They Want close behind. They sound great, and "Art Lover" (I'm pretty sure that was the title) and "Property" are as good or better than any of the band's sixties/early seventies cuts.
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Post by Paul on Jan 22, 2006 22:08:38 GMT -5
And I didn't mean to imply that Davies was aping either Bowie or Macca. Rather, I meant to simply state that Davies songs often took the worst of McCartney's world view and combined it with the kind of overly stagey and campy moves which Bowie on occassion went too far over the top with as well. And this can be really annoying, at least to me. Also, Davies suffers from the same disease that have lead both Bowie and Townshend to also often neglect their fundemental strengths (song writing) in favor of pursuing the lofty goal of "concept" albums. And frankly, all of the Kinks concept LPs strike me (from what little I know of them) as being every bit as pretentious, dull, and ultimately pointless as Diamond Dogs or Psychoderelict (both of which bore me to tears whenever I try to listen to them all the way through). Again, when Davies could be bothered to me more concerned with his songs than with big themes, he's capable of genius. But there's so much unlistenable stuff mixed in with those gems ... I do agree that a lot of the Kinks material from the 70's was kind of over the top and campy. Ray seemed to loose his train of thought and got consumed about the plot of the album, and didn't focus on the music. Village Green is a theme album more so than a plot album like Soap Opera, and is much better. Although, the Kinks were [rumor has it] rather drunk during most of the recording for Soap Opera, and the tunes are actually kinda fun. So I do agree that is was just a bit too much. Sleepwalkers released in 1976 is a pleasant surprise, and a return to songs, not plots. I think if you heard Arthur you may be pleased with it. For me it's the Kinks hitting on all cylinders; a perfect balance of concept, plot, British zaniness, and flat out rock. It's not over the top, and Ray comes off more sincere than pretentious. The songs sound somewhat simple, but the Kinks had a unique way of structuring the music. Sometimes this didn't work, but on Arthur, everything just seems to be right. Fortunately Arthur, as well as their entire catalog have been remastered; though still not perfect (especially the Pye recordings), they are far superior to the initial pressings. |
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Post by Paul on Jan 30, 2006 10:26:23 GMT -5
I listened to some of the mixes I made for a few here over the weekend and have to scratch my head thinking how the Kinks are so overlooked. The growth they showed (as some of you will hopefully hear this week) from 1964-1966 rivals the Beatles (if not exceeds), and it's facinating (to me at least) to hear the band come into their own. The inital songs, save for "You Really Got Me" and "All Day & All of the Night" sound like a looser/rawer version of the Beatles, but by the end of 1964 w/ songs like "Well Respected Man" and "See My Friends" the Kinks took a larger and quicker step to maturity than the Beatles did.
For those who requested, I'm gonna try to make it to the post office today, so hopefully you'll have your cds by the end of the week.
I look forward to your opinons/comments.
PC
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Post by Paul on Jan 31, 2006 22:29:27 GMT -5
Well, you've done it. I'll be completely obsessed with The Kinks for at least a month. Did you get those MP3s of "Brainwashed" & "Mr. Churchill Says" I sent to you? If so, did you like them? |
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Post by dolly on Feb 2, 2006 10:14:32 GMT -5
Agh - neglect. Kinks listens of the last few days: -Arthur (Or The Decline And Fall Of The British Empire) -Misfits -Muswell Hillbillies -Face To Face (downloaded as mine is cratched from tracks 2-through-6)  The inital songs, save for "You Really Got Me" and "All Day & All of the Night" sound like a looser/rawer version of the Beatles, but by the end of 1964 w/ songs like "Well Respected Man" and "See My Friends" the Kinks took a larger and quicker step to maturity than the Beatles did.I'd love to agree with this, as my preference of The Kinks at any point of their co-existance is documented, but my personal feeling is that they were both maturing at approximately the same rate. I mean, Lennon's "In my life" appeared on '65's Rubber Soul (and was written years earlier by a 16 year old John, I believe), and Norwejan Wood, whilst not necessarily "mature" as such, was certainly a progression from the "I wanna hold your hand" style of a couple of years earlier. Perhaps McCartney hadn't quite caught up (I'm not sure he ever really did, to be honest), but I think Lennon was always ahead of his time - he just had a knack for the commercial 3 minute pop song that took off when the Beatles first hit big. However, Davies always had that sneering cynicism and ability to see beneath the veneer of the swingin' 60s scene of the time, and come up with songs like the questioning "Where have all the good times gone" - which was totally at odds with the zeitgeist of the time. A sharper maturity ascent? I'm not so sure - but I think the early output of The Kinks, with it's hard raw edge stands up well against the cheesy singalong Scouse-pop that characterised the Beatles until they discovered weed. |
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Post by Paul on Feb 2, 2006 12:08:39 GMT -5
I was fishing for some argument, but never got any (regarding the maturity). As much as I love the Kinks, the Beatles are still the Alpha and Omega in my book.
"cheesy singalong Scouse-pop that characterised the Beatles until they discovered weed." you mean Dr. Robert?
What do you think of Misfits? I recently got that, and I'm having trouble getting into it....I got Sleepwalkers around the same time (both gifts over the holidays), and I prefer Sleepwalkers over Misfits.
What's your favorite or some of your tops on Arthur?
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Post by dolly on Feb 2, 2006 12:33:43 GMT -5
Hehe. Well even I couldn't agree with that one - much as I would love too. However, I feel ambivalent towards The Beatles, unlike the Kinks - although I'll qualify that with saying I'm not ambivalent to all Beatles songs. Far from it.
On Arthur tops:
'Victoria' is a given
"I was born, lucky me
In a land that I love
Though I am poor, I am free"
Also,
Brainwashed
Arthur
Nothing to Say (the music reminds me of The Band for some reason - not the lyrics of course). As does:
Mr Churchill says.
Really don't like the Princess Marina hat one though. Can't defend that.....
What bout you?
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